[e2e] Switched Ethernet is Not an End-to-End System; was Protocols breaking the end-to-end argument

Richard Bennett richard at bennett.com
Thu Nov 12 20:10:10 PST 2009

Weren't the designers of the Internet Kleinrock, Roberts, Kahn, and 
Cerf? I heard that on the Internet today. Dave Clark is a fine 
gentleman, but it was my impression that the design work was mainly done 
in the mid-70s.

You make an interesting claim in this and one of the preceding msgs, to 
wit that the Internet is "application-neutral." Does anybody really 
believe that?


Bob Braden wrote:
> Richard Bennett wrote:
>> I'm not persuaded that the best engineering solution always wins the 
>> prize, Bob: VHS vs. Beta for example. I think there's a lot of 
>> evidence to suggest that non-engineering factors have had a lot to do 
>> with the hegemony of TCP/IP.
> Absolutely no question about that.There were half a dozen places along 
> they way from 1978 when political/commercial forces could have limited 
> or killed the Internet.  (And it could still happen) OTOH, the 
> robustness of TCP in the world illustrates the power of 
> (sophisticated) simplicity in design, and the power of decentralization.
>> It's difficult to respond in detail to the following as much of it is 
>> mid-sentence complaints about thing that happen to be answered in the 
>> next phrase or so,
> I am  sorry, that just is not true (that the next sentence answered 
> the comment).
>> but I will say I don't imply that the designers of internetworks 
>> didn't think abstractly; Pouzin certainly did and still does.But I am 
>> saying the argument that a particular sub-optimal design is best for 
>> a production network
> By picking out Pouzin (as an example (he deserves it, of course) you 
> are subtly implying that Dave Clark, for example, does NOT think 
> abstractly?
>> because it happens to avoid fate-sharing or support innovation seems 
>> a bit like grasping at straws.
> Huh??
>> Secure, reliable, and efficient networks support innovation best.
> Not if they obtain security, reliability, and efficiency through 
> centralized control and application-dependent networking..
> Bob Braden
>> RB

Richard Bennett
Research Fellow
Information Technology and Innovation Foundation
Washington, DC

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