From monia at cs.toronto.edu Fri Sep 7 22:53:09 2012 From: monia at cs.toronto.edu (Monia Ghobadi) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 01:53:09 -0400 Subject: [e2e] Traffic Burstiness Survey Message-ID: Dear E2E members, I am a PhD student at University of Toronto and I am working on traffic burstiness in data centers. In the following I am asking two questions to raise motivation for my research. I appreciate if anyone could answer these questions to their best knowledge. *The questions are:* 1) ?Bursty? is a word with no agreed meaning. How do you define a bursty traffic? 2) If you are involved with a data center, is your data center traffic bursty? -- If yes, -- Do you think that it will be useful to supress the burstiness in your traffic? (For example by pacing the traffic into shorter bursts) -- If no: -- Are you already supressing the burstiness? How? -- Would you anticipate the traffic becoming burstier in the future? Thanks, Monia ------------------ Monia Ghobadi PhD Student University of Toronto http://www.cs.utoronto.ca/~monia/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120908/a5f6f992/attachment.html From craig at aland.bbn.com Sun Sep 9 15:39:55 2012 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2012 18:39:55 -0400 Subject: [e2e] Traffic Burstiness Survey Message-ID: <20120909223956.015FE28E139@aland.bbn.com> Hi Monia: I'll make a quick answer in the hopes that someone on the list will provide a better one. > 1) =91Bursty=92 is a word with no agreed meaning. How do you define a burst= > y > traffic? I don't know of a widely agreed upon definition. Generally when people say "bursty" traffic they mean non-isochronous traffic -- namely traffic where transmissions are not evenly spaced. Personally I try to push that definition a little further and say that "burst Poisson" isn't truly bursty either. That's because we've known since the early 1980s (and finally understood why when we saw the self-similarity paper of 1993) that "burst Poisson" doesn't capture the complexity of bursty traffic we see in networks. > 2) If you are involved with a data center, is your data center traffic > bursty? > -- If yes, > -- Do you think that it will be useful to supress the burstiness in > your traffic? (For example by pacing the traffic into shorter bursts) > -- If no: > -- Are you already supressing the burstiness? How? > -- Would you anticipate the traffic becoming burstier in the > future? I don't do data center traffic analysis (indeed, getting good data is hard), but they certainly see (non-Poisson) bursty traffic. Good luck with your research! Craig From anoop at alumni.duke.edu Sun Sep 9 23:02:13 2012 From: anoop at alumni.duke.edu (Anoop Ghanwani) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:02:13 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Traffic Burstiness Survey In-Reply-To: <20120909223956.015FE28E139@aland.bbn.com> References: <20120909223956.015FE28E139@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Craig Partridge wrote: > > I'll make a quick answer in the hopes that someone on the list will provide > a better one. > >> 1) =91Bursty=92 is a word with no agreed meaning. How do you define a burst= >> y >> traffic? > > I don't know of a widely agreed upon definition. Generally when people say > "bursty" traffic they mean non-isochronous traffic -- namely traffic where > transmissions are not evenly spaced. I agree with this definition. Traffic gets to be bursty because of the "on/off" nature of sources. >> 2) If you are involved with a data center, is your data center traffic >> bursty? >> -- If yes, >> -- Do you think that it will be useful to supress the burstiness in >> your traffic? (For example by pacing the traffic into shorter bursts) >> -- If no: >> -- Are you already supressing the burstiness? How? >> -- Would you anticipate the traffic becoming burstier in the >> future? While I'm not a data center operator, I think I can safely say that most would categorize their traffic as bursty. Do they regard it as a problem? Yes and no. Yes, because it impacts the amount of buffering needed in devices. No because it can largely be solved by overprovisioning the network and bandwidth is cheap. Avoiding/mitigating bursts typically involves shaping and that is expensive and introduces additional latency. In general, there are many data center applications -- storage, compute (e.g. hadoop, map reduce), etc. -- and the traffic patterns for each of those would have to be analyzed separately. Anoop From neil.davies at pnsol.com Mon Sep 10 01:22:20 2012 From: neil.davies at pnsol.com (Neil Davies) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 09:22:20 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Traffic Burstiness Survey In-Reply-To: References: <20120909223956.015FE28E139@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: I've always found the coefficient of variance of the offered load to be a very useful indicator. On 10 Sep 2012, at 07:02, Anoop Ghanwani wrote: > On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 3:39 PM, Craig Partridge wrote: >> >> I'll make a quick answer in the hopes that someone on the list will provide >> a better one. >> >>> 1) =91Bursty=92 is a word with no agreed meaning. How do you define a burst= >>> y >>> traffic? >> >> I don't know of a widely agreed upon definition. Generally when people say >> "bursty" traffic they mean non-isochronous traffic -- namely traffic where >> transmissions are not evenly spaced. > > I agree with this definition. Traffic gets to be bursty because of > the "on/off" nature of sources. > >>> 2) If you are involved with a data center, is your data center traffic >>> bursty? >>> -- If yes, >>> -- Do you think that it will be useful to supress the burstiness in >>> your traffic? (For example by pacing the traffic into shorter bursts) >>> -- If no: >>> -- Are you already supressing the burstiness? How? >>> -- Would you anticipate the traffic becoming burstier in the >>> future? > > While I'm not a data center operator, I think I can safely > say that most would categorize their traffic as bursty. > Do they regard it as a problem? Yes and no. Yes, because > it impacts the amount of buffering needed in devices. > No because it can largely be solved by overprovisioning > the network and bandwidth is cheap. Avoiding/mitigating > bursts typically involves shaping and that is expensive and > introduces additional latency. > > In general, there are many data center applications -- > storage, compute (e.g. hadoop, map reduce), etc. -- and > the traffic patterns for each of those would have to be analyzed > separately. > > Anoop From richard at richardclegg.org Mon Sep 10 03:58:10 2012 From: richard at richardclegg.org (Richard G. Clegg) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 11:58:10 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Traffic Burstiness Survey In-Reply-To: References: <20120909223956.015FE28E139@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: <504DC7C2.8020900@richardclegg.org> On 10/09/12 09:22, Neil Davies wrote: > I've always found the coefficient of variance of the offered load to be a very useful indicator. > I agree it is useful but one can construct hypothetical traces with the same CoV representing a constant linear increase (perfectly smooth) and sin wave of arbitrary frequency. So perfectly smooth traffic and very ill-behaved traffic can have identical CoV. (But one can construct similar counter examples with almost any measure picked). Wischik and Ganesh's concept of Hurstiness is a mathematically rigorous quantity developed for analysing the burstiness of traffic queues which has some attractive known results for buffer asymptotics. http://www0.cs.ucl.ac.uk/staff/ucacdjw/Research/hurstiness.html -- Richard G. Clegg, Dept of Elec. Eng., University College London http://www.richardclegg.org/ From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 01:06:13 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2012 11:06:13 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP Message-ID: Dear colleagues, I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It would be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles therefore it is economically more viable. -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the modification of all Internet routers. -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is not normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not have to. -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for example TCP. -This is the end-to-end principle. Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running random IP versions): http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg The question is: ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question without entering in design challenges.*** For more information, see my unpublished paper: http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP Cheers, Pars -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120912/447d3a38/attachment.html From lachlan.andrew at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 14:29:41 2012 From: lachlan.andrew at gmail.com (Lachlan Andrew) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:29:41 +1000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings Pars, I think that what you are describing is actually the way the Internet works. The "version" field in the IP header allows different users to run different versions over the same network. The IETF does not, and cannot, mandate that people use IPv6; that is why most people still do not use it. The reason that the routers need to be changed is that the process of routing requires them to know the address the packet is being sent to. The way this address is represented depends on the version of IP, and so whatever version of IP is used must be supported by (some of) the routers. I hope this removes some confusion. Cheers, Lachlan On 12 September 2012 18:06, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It would > be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. > I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles > therefore it is economically more viable. > > -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the > modification of all Internet routers. > -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because > deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks > its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is not > normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown > reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not have > to. > -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for > example TCP. > -This is the end-to-end principle. > > Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running > random IP versions): > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg > > The question is: > ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question > without entering in design challenges.*** > > For more information, see my unpublished paper: > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > > Cheers, > Pars -- Lachlan Andrew Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures (CAIA) Swinburne University of Technology, Melbourne, Australia Ph +61 3 9214 4837 From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 21:38:33 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:38:33 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrew, China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day someone uses IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install IPv7. The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all versions are supported. Cheers, On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Lachlan Andrew wrote: > Greetings Pars, > > I think that what you are describing is actually the way the Internet > works. The "version" field in the IP header allows different users to > run different versions over the same network. > > The IETF does not, and cannot, mandate that people use IPv6; that is > why most people still do not use it. > > The reason that the routers need to be changed is that the process of > routing requires them to know the address the packet is being sent to. > The way this address is represented depends on the version of IP, and > so whatever version of IP is used must be supported by (some of) the > routers. > > I hope this removes some confusion. > > Cheers, > Lachlan > > On 12 September 2012 18:06, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It > would > > be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. > > I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles > > therefore it is economically more viable. > > > > -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the > > modification of all Internet routers. > > -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because > > deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF > blocks > > its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is > not > > normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for > unknown > > reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not > have > > to. > > -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for > > example TCP. > > -This is the end-to-end principle. > > > > Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running > > random IP versions): > > > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg > > > > The question is: > > ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question > > without entering in design challenges.*** > > > > For more information, see my unpublished paper: > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > > > > Cheers, > > Pars > > -- > Lachlan Andrew Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures (CAIA) > Swinburne University of Technology, Melbourne, Australia > > Ph +61 3 9214 4837 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120913/7e997190/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 22:38:37 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 08:38:37 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One point to my previous message: I don't have to use tunnel brokers to reach IPv6 hosts. (btw, the paying a tunneling cost for every packet doesn't seem like a good idea) I don't want to care which IP the destination uses. On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. > I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day someone uses IPv7 > (it is their right), I don't have to install IPv7. > The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all versions are > supported. > > Cheers, > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Lachlan Andrew > wrote: > >> Greetings Pars, >> >> I think that what you are describing is actually the way the Internet >> works. The "version" field in the IP header allows different users to >> run different versions over the same network. >> >> The IETF does not, and cannot, mandate that people use IPv6; that is >> why most people still do not use it. >> >> The reason that the routers need to be changed is that the process of >> routing requires them to know the address the packet is being sent to. >> The way this address is represented depends on the version of IP, and >> so whatever version of IP is used must be supported by (some of) the >> routers. >> >> I hope this removes some confusion. >> >> Cheers, >> Lachlan >> >> On 12 September 2012 18:06, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> > Dear colleagues, >> > >> > I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It >> would >> > be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. >> > I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles >> > therefore it is economically more viable. >> > >> > -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the >> > modification of all Internet routers. >> > -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because >> > deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF >> blocks >> > its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is >> not >> > normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for >> unknown >> > reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not >> have >> > to. >> > -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for >> > example TCP. >> > -This is the end-to-end principle. >> > >> > Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets >> running >> > random IP versions): >> > >> http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg >> > >> > The question is: >> > ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this >> question >> > without entering in design challenges.*** >> > >> > For more information, see my unpublished paper: >> > >> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Pars >> >> -- >> Lachlan Andrew Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures (CAIA) >> Swinburne University of Technology, Melbourne, Australia >> >> Ph +61 3 9214 4837 >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120913/8c8fa296/attachment.html From zartash at lums.edu.pk Wed Sep 12 22:36:11 2012 From: zartash at lums.edu.pk (Zartash Afzal Uzmi) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 10:36:11 +0500 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> Dear Pars, If you are an end user, your "application" should be able to "talk" to anyone if your network uses IPv4 and their network uses IPv6. At the network layer, there must be "someone" in the middle who can understand both versions. This someone could be any router at a service provider and as an end user, all you would need to worry about is to be able to connect to your service provider. So, for example, if your provider only has an IPv6 network, then yes your end host is restricted to use IPv6. There are situations (not rare, these days) when a service provider will allow end-user connectivity either through IPv4 or IPv6. So, it is up to the provider how they connect to the other service providers (IPv6 or IPv4 or any other version). If you are a service provider, and do not support IPv6, then you can not "directly" connect with another provider who only supports IPv6. But then, you might be going through yet another larger service provider who would support both versions. Regards, Zartash ________________________________________ From: end2end-interest-bounces at postel.org [end2end-interest-bounces at postel.org] On Behalf Of Pars Mutaf [pars.mutaf at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:38 AM To: Lachlan Andrew Cc: end2end-interest at postel.org Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP Hi Andrew, China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day someone uses IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install IPv7. The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all versions are supported. Cheers, On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Lachlan Andrew > wrote: Greetings Pars, I think that what you are describing is actually the way the Internet works. The "version" field in the IP header allows different users to run different versions over the same network. The IETF does not, and cannot, mandate that people use IPv6; that is why most people still do not use it. The reason that the routers need to be changed is that the process of routing requires them to know the address the packet is being sent to. The way this address is represented depends on the version of IP, and so whatever version of IP is used must be supported by (some of) the routers. I hope this removes some confusion. Cheers, Lachlan On 12 September 2012 18:06, Pars Mutaf > wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It would > be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. > I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles > therefore it is economically more viable. > > -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the > modification of all Internet routers. > -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because > deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks > its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is not > normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown > reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not have > to. > -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for > example TCP. > -This is the end-to-end principle. > > Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running > random IP versions): > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg > > The question is: > ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question > without entering in design challenges.*** > > For more information, see my unpublished paper: > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > > Cheers, > Pars -- Lachlan Andrew Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures (CAIA) Swinburne University of Technology, Melbourne, Australia Ph +61 3 9214 4837 From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 12 22:53:13 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 08:53:13 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> References: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> Message-ID: Hi Zartash, On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 8:36 AM, Zartash Afzal Uzmi wrote: > Dear Pars, > > If you are an end user, your "application" should be able to "talk" to > anyone if your network uses IPv4 and their network uses IPv6. At the > network layer, there must be "someone" in the middle who can understand > both versions. This someone could be any router at a service provider and > as an end user, all you would need to worry about is to be able to connect > to your service provider. So regarding your and Andrew's responses I got the answer to my question. We should be able to use any IP version. But I don't understand how can we do this in the current TCP/IP protocol suite. Currently there are tunnel brokers, clearly not a real solution. Not easy to use, not efficient and I have to install IPv6. Cheers, Pars > So, for example, if your provider only has an IPv6 network, then yes your > end host is restricted to use IPv6. > > There are situations (not rare, these days) when a service provider will > allow end-user connectivity either through IPv4 or IPv6. So, it is up to > the provider how they connect to the other service providers (IPv6 or IPv4 > or any other version). > > If you are a service provider, and do not support IPv6, then you can not > "directly" connect with another provider who only supports IPv6. But then, > you might be going through yet another larger service provider who would > support both versions. > > Regards, > Zartash > ________________________________________ > From: end2end-interest-bounces at postel.org [ > end2end-interest-bounces at postel.org] On Behalf Of Pars Mutaf [ > pars.mutaf at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2012 10:38 AM > To: Lachlan Andrew > Cc: end2end-interest at postel.org > Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP > > Hi Andrew, > > China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. > I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day someone uses IPv7 > (it is their right), I don't have to install IPv7. > The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all versions are > supported. > > Cheers, > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 12:29 AM, Lachlan Andrew > wrote: > Greetings Pars, > > I think that what you are describing is actually the way the Internet > works. The "version" field in the IP header allows different users to > run different versions over the same network. > > The IETF does not, and cannot, mandate that people use IPv6; that is > why most people still do not use it. > > The reason that the routers need to be changed is that the process of > routing requires them to know the address the packet is being sent to. > The way this address is represented depends on the version of IP, and > so whatever version of IP is used must be supported by (some of) the > routers. > > I hope this removes some confusion. > > Cheers, > Lachlan > > On 12 September 2012 18:06, Pars Mutaf pars.mutaf at gmail.com>> wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > > > I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It > would > > be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. > > I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles > > therefore it is economically more viable. > > > > -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the > > modification of all Internet routers. > > -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because > > deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF > blocks > > its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is > not > > normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for > unknown > > reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not > have > > to. > > -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for > > example TCP. > > -This is the end-to-end principle. > > > > Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running > > random IP versions): > > > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg > > > > The question is: > > ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question > > without entering in design challenges.*** > > > > For more information, see my unpublished paper: > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > > > > Cheers, > > Pars > > -- > Lachlan Andrew Centre for Advanced Internet Architectures (CAIA) > Swinburne University of Technology, Melbourne, Australia > > Ph +61 3 9214 4837 > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120913/81f9f56c/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Thu Sep 13 07:42:02 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 17:42:02 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> Message-ID: The point you seem to miss is: There is no such thing as lucky design. You get exactly what you want. IPv6 was not deployed to co-exist with IPv4. A worldwide transition was assumed. So they do not co-exist efficiently. Is the worldwide transition to IPv6 is a good thing? It is assumed that the need for IP addresses is homogeneously distributed over the world. In reality, some entities need much less addresses than others. So worldwide transition to IPv6 doesn't make sense. The problem here is: You design a protocol, but you do not give the freedom of choice to use this protocol. Those who need it cannot use it. Because there are entities who do not need it. Another problem with imposing the same protocol to the whole world is the assumption that the product is perfect for everybody. It is probably not. I don't want 6lowpan for my sensor network for example because the IP address is too large. I want IPv7 which defines very small IP packets, for example. Who can say no? I want to test IPv8 in my country. Who can say no? IPv6 means: IP research is done forever. IPv6 is good for everyone. I am sorry, this is impossible. ********** Who says that IETF has the role of designing IP versions for the entire world? This is the most important problem. I can design one and use it. Who will say no? I am happy with my IP and I want to be reachable to the entire world. ************** IETF's role is to enable technology, i.e. all possible IP protocols. Everybody do what they wish. As I see, we should have a dynamic IP layer which allows all solutions, we see what happens. Who knows everybody may agree on the same version for some time, then disagree again. The question is, without entering design challenges, is this what we want? I seriously doubt that IETF did not ask itself what it wants really. I questioned MANET for example, I told that it is useless. No one could explain why it is useful. Millions of dollar are being spent for MANET research. -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120913/6137f26b/attachment.html From touch at isi.edu Fri Sep 14 00:36:19 2012 From: touch at isi.edu (Joe Touch) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 00:36:19 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> Message-ID: <5052DE73.3020706@isi.edu> On 9/13/2012 7:42 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > The point you seem to miss is: There is no such thing as lucky design. > You get exactly what you want. (speaking as an individual, not as list moderator) I don't think you get what you want, most of the time in any design, except one that's tailored for personal use. Despite 'flavor of the week' optimizations proposed by various large companies over the years, the Internet's architecture and its protocols, are true examples of: "You can't always get what you want, but you get what you need." Joe IMO, the Internet ought to adopt the Rolling Stones as its official motto band. ;-) From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 01:00:37 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 11:00:37 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <5052DE73.3020706@isi.edu> References: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> <5052DE73.3020706@isi.edu> Message-ID: I don't agree. No one gives you what you need, you get exactly what you want. The problem is detecting what you want exactly unconsciously. On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 9/13/2012 7:42 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> The point you seem to miss is: There is no such thing as lucky design. >> You get exactly what you want. >> > > (speaking as an individual, not as list moderator) > > I don't think you get what you want, most of the time in any design, > except one that's tailored for personal use. > > Despite 'flavor of the week' optimizations proposed by various large > companies over the years, the Internet's architecture and its protocols, > are true examples of: > > "You can't always get what you want, > but you get what you need." > > Joe > > IMO, the Internet ought to adopt the Rolling Stones as its official motto > band. ;-) > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120914/3aa58d31/attachment.html From detlef.bosau at web.de Fri Sep 14 16:35:45 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 01:35:45 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Hi Andrew, > > China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. > I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day someone uses > IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install IPv7. > The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all versions > are supported. I think, you miss two basic points. First: There is no such thing as "the" end to end principle. Particularly, Internet communication is nothing which happens between the communication end points and only there, but most of the work is done at the nodes in between. Second: The Internet is an overlay network by design. We want ONE common protocol which is supported by all nodes connected to this overlay network. Particularly, it shall not be the intention of the Internet to run several protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, this happened in the past, happens in the present and is expected to happen in the future, however it is not the basic intention. The more protocols you run in parallel, the more complex your intermediate nodes, which do all the routing work, will be. And it's certainly not our goal to make thinks unnecessarily complex. DB -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From detlef.bosau at web.de Fri Sep 14 16:38:31 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 01:38:31 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5053BFF7.5040909@web.de> On 09/13/2012 07:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > One point to my previous message: > I don't have to use tunnel brokers to reach IPv6 hosts. (btw, the > paying a tunneling cost for every packet doesn't seem like a good idea) > I don't want to care which IP the destination uses. > You do not have to care which IP (-address) your communication peer uses. As Lachlan pointed out: The next hop has to. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 21:52:10 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 07:52:10 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> Message-ID: Hi Detlef, On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> Hi Andrew, >> >> China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. >> I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day someone uses >> IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install IPv7. >> The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all versions are >> supported. >> > > I think, you miss two basic points. > > First: There is no such thing as "the" end to end principle. Particularly, > Internet communication is nothing which happens between the communication > end points and only there, but most of the work is done at the nodes in > between. > This contradicts what you say below. Below you say that you want to avoid this complexity. Here you say that this the way it is. So I don't understand you message. > > Second: The Internet is an overlay network by design. We want ONE common > protocol which is supported by all nodes connected to this overlay network. > Particularly, it shall not be the intention of the Internet to run several > protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, this happened in the past, happens in > the present and is expected to happen in the future, however it is not the > basic intention. The more protocols you run in parallel, the more complex > your intermediate nodes, which do all the routing work, will be. And it's > certainly not our goal to make thinks unnecessarily complex. > What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that the protocols will be run in "parallel?" > > DB > > > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/c2b6f03c/attachment.html From detlef.bosau at web.de Sat Sep 15 06:20:44 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:20:44 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> Message-ID: <505480AC.2010703@web.de> On 09/15/2012 06:52 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Hi Detlef, > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Detlef Bosau > wrote: > > On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > Hi Andrew, > > China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. > I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day > someone uses IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install > IPv7. > The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all > versions are supported. > > > I think, you miss two basic points. > > First: There is no such thing as "the" end to end principle. > Particularly, Internet communication is nothing which happens > between the communication end points and only there, but most of > the work is done at the nodes in between. > > > > This contradicts what you say below. Below you say that you want to > avoid this complexity. Here you say that this the way it is. So I > don't understand you message. > I don't see a contradiction here. Avoiding complexity does not mean that complexity does not exist. End nodes hardly have to deal with packets. Every now and then, there is a packet to be sent or to be received. So, end nodes have any time they want to inspect packets, to interpret them, whatever they want. Routers in the middle miss this privilege. They may be offered up to millions of packets each and every second. So, the effort spent for serving a single packet must be kept as small as possible. And of course, there is a huge difference between a core router in the tier 1 backbone, which has to deal with huge amounts of data, and a simple soho-box which may well play around with NAT and congestion management and queue management and all these funny little things which PhD students change the world with, without being noticed by the latter. Hence, although the IETF cannot make the world run IPv6, our common interest is to switch over to one common protocol in the internet. At least for the tier 1 backbone or other extremely busy parts of the Internet. > > > Second: The Internet is an overlay network by design. We want ONE > common protocol which is supported by all nodes connected to this > overlay network. Particularly, it shall not be the intention of > the Internet to run several protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, > this happened in the past, happens in the present and is expected > to happen in the future, however it is not the basic intention. > The more protocols you run in parallel, the more complex your > intermediate nodes, which do all the routing work, will be. And > it's certainly not our goal to make thinks unnecessarily complex. > > > What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that the protocols > will be run in "parallel?" > > > > > > DB > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de > http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 06:57:34 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:57:34 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <505480AC.2010703@web.de> References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > On 09/15/2012 06:52 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> Hi Detlef, >> >> >> On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Detlef Bosau > detlef.bosau at web.de>> wrote: >> >> On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> >> Hi Andrew, >> >> China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. >> I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day >> someone uses IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install >> IPv7. >> The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all >> versions are supported. >> >> >> I think, you miss two basic points. >> >> First: There is no such thing as "the" end to end principle. >> Particularly, Internet communication is nothing which happens >> between the communication end points and only there, but most of >> the work is done at the nodes in between. >> >> >> >> This contradicts what you say below. Below you say that you want to avoid >> this complexity. Here you say that this the way it is. So I don't >> understand you message. >> >> > > I don't see a contradiction here. Avoiding complexity does not mean that > complexity does not exist. > > End nodes hardly have to deal with packets. Every now and then, there is a > packet to be sent or to be received. So, end nodes have any time they want > to inspect packets, to interpret them, whatever they want. Routers in the > middle miss this privilege. They may be offered up to millions of packets > each and every second. So, the effort spent for serving a single packet > must be kept as small as possible. > > And of course, there is a huge difference between a core router in the > tier 1 backbone, which has to deal with huge amounts of data, and a simple > soho-box which may well play around with NAT and congestion management and > queue management and all these funny little things which PhD students > change the world with, without being noticed by the latter. > > Hence, although the IETF cannot make the world run IPv6, our common > interest is to switch over to one common protocol in the internet. At least > for the tier 1 backbone or other extremely busy parts of the Internet. > Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for others. For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready to pay the following processing cost for each packet: IPv4 packet comes in. I remove the header. I replace it with a IPv9 header. I route the packet. (and vice versa) Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is just an example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? > >> >> Second: The Internet is an overlay network by design. We want ONE >> common protocol which is supported by all nodes connected to this >> overlay network. Particularly, it shall not be the intention of >> the Internet to run several protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, >> this happened in the past, happens in the present and is expected >> to happen in the future, however it is not the basic intention. >> The more protocols you run in parallel, the more complex your >> intermediate nodes, which do all the routing work, will be. And >> it's certainly not our goal to make thinks unnecessarily complex. >> >> >> What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that the protocols will >> be run in "parallel?" >> >> >> >> >> >> DB >> >> >> -- ------------------------------**------------------------------ >> **------ >> Detlef Bosau >> Galileistra?e 30 >> 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 >> >> mobile: +49 172 6819937 >> >> skype: detlef.bosau >> ICQ: 566129673 >> detlef.bosau at web.de >> >> http://www.detlef-bosau.de >> ------------------------------**------------------------------** >> ------ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://www.content-based-**science.org >> >> > > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/5029fd0f/attachment-0001.html From bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com Sat Sep 15 07:38:51 2012 From: bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com (bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:38:51 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> <5052DE73.3020706@isi.edu> Message-ID: <20120915143851.GB21351@vacation.karoshi.com.> really? is that how it works for you? i want many things among them, a pony. unless someone (perhaps a mare) gives me that pony, it is unlikely I'll get one simply by wanting it. it is true that you have to work fo rwhat you get. /bill On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 11:00:37AM +0300, Pars Mutaf wrote: > I don't agree. No one gives you what you need, you get exactly what you > want. > > The problem is detecting what you want exactly unconsciously. > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > > > > > On 9/13/2012 7:42 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > >> The point you seem to miss is: There is no such thing as lucky design. > >> You get exactly what you want. > >> > > > > (speaking as an individual, not as list moderator) > > > > I don't think you get what you want, most of the time in any design, > > except one that's tailored for personal use. > > > > Despite 'flavor of the week' optimizations proposed by various large > > companies over the years, the Internet's architecture and its protocols, > > are true examples of: > > > > "You can't always get what you want, > > but you get what you need." > > > > Joe > > > > IMO, the Internet ought to adopt the Rolling Stones as its official motto > > band. ;-) > > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org From dhavey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 07:43:11 2012 From: dhavey at yahoo.com (Daniel Havey) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 07:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <505480AC.2010703@web.de> Message-ID: <1347720191.55560.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> a simple soho-box which may well play > around with NAT and congestion management and queue > management and all these funny little things which PhD > students change the world with, without being noticed by the > latter. Hey Detlaf ;^) How did you guess what I have been doing over the summer? > > What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that > the protocols will be run in "parallel?" I got this one. At the core routers the different IPvXs would have to run in parallel. The header format is different because of address lengths etc. The router must examine the version number and then act appropriately. The router must understand the header format of all packets that it will forward. You have a chicken, and you have an egg. Why would a company like Cisco build routers that understand IPv7 - IPv42? They built IPv6 in because they had a solid business reason. There weren't enough IPv4 addresses. IPv6 = more customers. So they built it and then the customers bought it. Since there are plenty of IPv6 addresses, all that is left to convince the core to change is some random "feature set". Not a very strong business reason. They will not build it. You can change the world, but you cannot change a core router ;^) ...Daniel (PhD student, who is busy changing the world ;^) --- On Sat, 9/15/12, Detlef Bosau wrote: > From: Detlef Bosau > Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP > To: > Cc: end2end-interest at postel.org > Date: Saturday, September 15, 2012, 6:20 AM > On 09/15/2012 06:52 AM, Pars Mutaf > wrote: > > Hi Detlef, > > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Detlef Bosau > > wrote: > > > >? ???On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars > Mutaf wrote: > > > >? ? ? ???Hi Andrew, > > > >? ? ? ???China has IPv6 > for example but I cannot talk to them. > >? ? ? ???I don't have to > install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day > >? ? ? ???someone uses IPv7 > (it is their right), I don't have to install > >? ? ? ???IPv7. > >? ? ? ???The fact that > there is a version field doesn't mean that all > >? ? ? ???versions are > supported. > > > > > >? ???I think, you miss two basic > points. > > > >? ???First: There is no such thing > as "the" end to end principle. > >? ???Particularly, Internet > communication is nothing which happens > >? ???between the communication end > points and only there, but most of > >? ???the work is done at the nodes > in between. > > > > > > > > This contradicts what you say below. Below you say that > you want to avoid this complexity. Here you say that this > the way it is. So I don't understand you message. > > > > > I don't see a contradiction here. Avoiding complexity does > not mean that complexity does not exist. > > End nodes hardly have to deal with packets. Every now and > then, there is a packet to be sent or to be received. So, > end nodes have any time they want to inspect packets, to > interpret them, whatever they want. Routers in the middle > miss this privilege. They may be offered up to millions of > packets each and every second. So, the effort spent for > serving a single packet must be kept as small as possible. > > And of course, there is a huge difference between a core > router in the tier 1 backbone, which has to deal with huge > amounts of data, and a simple soho-box which may well play > around with NAT and congestion management and queue > management and all these funny little things which PhD > students change the world with, without being noticed by the > latter. > > Hence, although the IETF cannot make the world run IPv6, our > common interest is to switch over to one common protocol in > the internet. At least for the tier 1 backbone or other > extremely busy parts of the Internet. > > > > > >? ???Second: The Internet is an > overlay network by design. We want ONE > >? ???common protocol which is > supported by all nodes connected to this > >? ???overlay network. Particularly, > it shall not be the intention of > >? ???the Internet to run several > protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, > >? ???this happened in the past, > happens in the present and is expected > >? ???to happen in the future, > however it is not the basic intention. > >? ???The more protocols you run in > parallel, the more complex your > >? ???intermediate nodes, which do > all the routing work, will be. And > >? ???it's certainly not our goal to > make thinks unnecessarily complex. > > > > > > What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that > the protocols will be run in "parallel?" > > > > > > > > > > > >? ???DB > > > > > >? ???--? > ???------------------------------------------------------------------ > >? ???Detlef Bosau > >? ???Galileistra?e 30 > >? ???70565 Stuttgart? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > >? > ??? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > >? > ??? > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > skype: detlef.bosau > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ICQ:? 566129673 > >? ???detlef.bosau at web.de > > >? ???http://www.detlef-bosau.de > >? > ???------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30??? > 70565 Stuttgart? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > Tel.:???+49 711 5208031 > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ???mobile: +49 > 172 6819937 > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ???skype:? > ???detlef.bosau > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ? ? ? ? ???ICQ:? > ? ? ? ? 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de? > ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? > ???http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > From detlef.bosau at web.de Sat Sep 15 07:45:38 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 16:45:38 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> Message-ID: <50549492.8000404@web.de> On 09/15/2012 03:57 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > > > Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for > others. > For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country Nobody will hinder you. > and for this I am ready to pay the following processing cost for each > packet: > > IPv4 packet comes in. > I remove the header. > I replace it with a IPv9 header. > I route the packet. > (and vice versa) Please feel perfectly free to do so. > > Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is > just an example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? > > The question is, wether you'll find and ISP who offers IPv9 access to the Internet. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From dhavey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 07:49:10 2012 From: dhavey at yahoo.com (Daniel Havey) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 07:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP Message-ID: <1347720550.78195.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Oooops, I guess I missed that part about changing headers. If you are willing to pay the cost, then I guess, who cares. I don't. However, if you want other countries to change their core routers then, no way. It seems like you building your own little Internet, and then installing gateways (or whatever you call them) to connect to the rest of the world. Again, is your IPv25 feature set so great that it is worth doing all that? ...Daniel --- On Sat, 9/15/12, Pars Mutaf wrote: From: Pars Mutaf Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP To: "Detlef Bosau" Cc: end2end-interest at postel.org Date: Saturday, September 15, 2012, 6:57 AM On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: On 09/15/2012 06:52 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: Hi Detlef, On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Detlef Bosau > wrote: ? ? On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: ? ? ? ? Hi Andrew, ? ? ? ? China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. ? ? ? ? I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day ? ? ? ? someone uses IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install ? ? ? ? IPv7. ? ? ? ? The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all ? ? ? ? versions are supported. ? ? I think, you miss two basic points. ? ? First: There is no such thing as "the" end to end principle. ? ? Particularly, Internet communication is nothing which happens ? ? between the communication end points and only there, but most of ? ? the work is done at the nodes in between. This contradicts what you say below. Below you say that you want to avoid this complexity. Here you say that this the way it is. So I don't understand you message. I don't see a contradiction here. Avoiding complexity does not mean that complexity does not exist. End nodes hardly have to deal with packets. Every now and then, there is a packet to be sent or to be received. So, end nodes have any time they want to inspect packets, to interpret them, whatever they want. Routers in the middle miss this privilege. They may be offered up to millions of packets each and every second. So, the effort spent for serving a single packet must be kept as small as possible. And of course, there is a huge difference between a core router in the tier 1 backbone, which has to deal with huge amounts of data, and a simple soho-box which may well play around with NAT and congestion management and queue management and all these funny little things which PhD students change the world with, without being noticed by the latter. Hence, although the IETF cannot make the world run IPv6, our common interest is to switch over to one common protocol in the internet. At least for the tier 1 backbone or other extremely busy parts of the Internet. Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for others. For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready to pay the following processing cost for each packet: IPv4 packet comes in. I remove the header. I replace it with a IPv9 header. I route the packet. (and vice versa) Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is just an example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? ? ? ? Second: The Internet is an overlay network by design. We want ONE ? ? common protocol which is supported by all nodes connected to this ? ? overlay network. Particularly, it shall not be the intention of ? ? the Internet to run several protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, ? ? this happened in the past, happens in the present and is expected ? ? to happen in the future, however it is not the basic intention. ? ? The more protocols you run in parallel, the more complex your ? ? intermediate nodes, which do all the routing work, will be. And ? ? it's certainly not our goal to make thinks unnecessarily complex. What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that the protocols will be run in "parallel?" ? ? DB ? ? -- ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------ ? ? Detlef Bosau ? ? Galileistra?e 30 ? ? 70565 Stuttgart ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Tel.: +49 711 5208031 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?mobile: +49 172 6819937 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?skype: detlef.bosau ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?ICQ: ?566129673 ? ? detlef.bosau at web.de ? ? http://www.detlef-bosau.de ? ? ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- http://www.content-based-science.org -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 ? ? ? ? 70565 Stuttgart ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?Tel.: ? +49 711 5208031 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?mobile: +49 172 6819937 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?skype: ? ? detlef.bosau ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?ICQ: ? ? ? ? ?566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ -- http://www.content-based-science.org From bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com Sat Sep 15 07:49:30 2012 From: bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com (bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 14:49:30 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> Message-ID: <20120915144930.GC21351@vacation.karoshi.com.> > > Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for > others. > For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready to > pay the following processing cost for each packet: > > IPv4 packet comes in. > I remove the header. > I replace it with a IPv9 header. > I route the packet. > (and vice versa) > > Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is just an > example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? > You are certainly free to do as you have outlined. Just not be surprised when: a) things don't work as planned, since its not just the header that is involved and b) your definition of IPv9 (or pick something else - say IPv6) is unlike the agreed on standard - via the IETF, which has perview of the IP specs. and c) you pass and enforce legal constraints to force all communications that crosses your countries political borders to cross through your address translators only to find yourselves isolated from the rest of the world. Please proceed with your implementation plans and report back on your success. the thousands of others who have been down this path before -MIGHT- have missed something that is crystal clear to you and you alone. /bill From schmidt at informatik.haw-hamburg.de Sat Sep 15 09:18:57 2012 From: schmidt at informatik.haw-hamburg.de (Thomas C. Schmidt) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 18:18:57 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <50549492.8000404@web.de> References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <50549492.8000404@web.de> Message-ID: <5054AA71.9050702@informatik.haw-hamburg.de> Hi, I don't want to pick on details along the line of this discussion. What seems worthwhile noting: These headers in IP do carry some information relevant for routing. If you rip off the IPv4 header, replace it by IPv9, then route to an IPv4 domain again (with ripping and replacing), will be the same IPv4 header restored again? And if so, i.e., IPv9 headers carry equivalent information to that of IPv4 headers, why do we need IPv9? Alternatively, if you actually speak about tunneling, I don't see much novelty in it. Cheers, Thomas On 15.09.2012 16:45, Detlef Bosau wrote: > On 09/15/2012 03:57 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for >> others. >> For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country > > > Nobody will hinder you. > >> and for this I am ready to pay the following processing cost for each >> packet: >> >> IPv4 packet comes in. >> I remove the header. >> I replace it with a IPv9 header. >> I route the packet. >> (and vice versa) > > Please feel perfectly free to do so. > >> >> Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is >> just an example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? >> >> > > The question is, wether you'll find and ISP who offers IPv9 access to > the Internet. > -- Prof. Dr. Thomas C. Schmidt ? Hamburg University of Applied Sciences Berliner Tor 7 ? ? Dept. Informatik, Internet Technologies Group 20099 Hamburg, Germany ? ? http://www.haw-hamburg.de/inet Fon: +49-40-42875-8452 ? ? http://www.informatik.haw-hamburg.de/~schmidt Fax: +49-40-42875-8409 ? From jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Sat Sep 15 09:41:44 2012 From: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 17:41:44 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't want to be indescete, but can I suggest that what everyone wants is a continuous internet, if you take my floating pont. we did some work along the lines you are I think suggesting some years back - see www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/*plutarch*-fdna.pdf On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 9:06 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It would > be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. > I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles > therefore it is economically more viable. > > -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the > modification of all Internet routers. > -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because > deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks > its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is not > normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown > reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not > have to. > -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for > example TCP. > -This is the end-to-end principle. > > Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running > random IP versions): > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg > > The question is: > ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question > without entering in design challenges.*** > > For more information, see my unpublished paper: > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > > Cheers, > Pars > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/8006e756/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:29:01 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:29:01 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <50549300.c748b40a.744f.6ef5SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <027EE25B4B26FA488F68E78DE34481910173F045797B@E2K7EMC.lums.net> <5052DE73.3020706@isi.edu> <50549300.c748b40a.744f.6ef5SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Bill ask yourself who asking the pony here? "I" design the world should use. What is this behaivor? On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 5:38 PM, wrote: > > really? is that how it works for you? > i want many things among them, a pony. > unless someone (perhaps a mare) gives me that pony, > it is unlikely I'll get one simply by wanting it. > > it is true that you have to work fo rwhat you get. > > /bill > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 11:00:37AM +0300, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > I don't agree. No one gives you what you need, you get exactly what you > > want. > > > > The problem is detecting what you want exactly unconsciously. > > > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Joe Touch wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 9/13/2012 7:42 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > > > >> The point you seem to miss is: There is no such thing as lucky design. > > >> You get exactly what you want. > > >> > > > > > > (speaking as an individual, not as list moderator) > > > > > > I don't think you get what you want, most of the time in any design, > > > except one that's tailored for personal use. > > > > > > Despite 'flavor of the week' optimizations proposed by various large > > > companies over the years, the Internet's architecture and its > protocols, > > > are true examples of: > > > > > > "You can't always get what you want, > > > but you get what you need." > > > > > > Joe > > > > > > IMO, the Internet ought to adopt the Rolling Stones as its official > motto > > > band. ;-) > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.content-based-science.org > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/63fab86e/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:31:25 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:31:25 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <5054957d.831fd80a.0592.ffffabe9SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <5054957d.831fd80a.0592.ffffabe9SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: That did not made sense. You are exaggerating the work you did on IPv6. On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 5:49 PM, wrote: > > > > Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for > > others. > > For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready > to > > pay the following processing cost for each packet: > > > > IPv4 packet comes in. > > I remove the header. > > I replace it with a IPv9 header. > > I route the packet. > > (and vice versa) > > > > Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is just > an > > example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? > > > > You are certainly free to do as you have outlined. Just not be > surprised > when: > > a) things don't work as planned, since its not just the header > that is involved > and > b) your definition of IPv9 (or pick something else - say IPv6) is > unlike the > agreed on standard - via the IETF, which has perview of the IP > specs. > and > c) you pass and enforce legal constraints to force all > communications that crosses > your countries political borders to cross through your address > translators only > to find yourselves isolated from the rest of the world. > > > Please proceed with your implementation plans and report back on > your success. > the thousands of others who have been down this path before > -MIGHT- have missed > something that is crystal clear to you and you alone. > > /bill > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/dbf741b7/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:35:22 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:35:22 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <1347720550.78195.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1347720550.78195.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 5:49 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: > Oooops, I guess I missed that part about changing headers. If you are > willing to pay the cost, then I guess, who cares. I don't. However, if > you want other countries to change their core routers then, no way. > > No everybody do what they wish. > It seems like you building your own little Internet, and then installing > gateways (or whatever you call them) to connect to the rest of the world. > > Again, is your IPv25 feature set so great that it is worth doing all that? > This question has no meaning. Because: 1. IETF's policy prevents its own protocol, IPv6, from deployment. Because IETF doesn't give freedom of choice. 2. Saying that IP research is done sounds a bit short-sighted and very harmful. > > ...Daniel > > > --- On Sat, 9/15/12, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > From: Pars Mutaf > Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP > To: "Detlef Bosau" > Cc: end2end-interest at postel.org > Date: Saturday, September 15, 2012, 6:57 AM > > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 4:20 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > > On 09/15/2012 06:52 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > Hi Detlef, > > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Detlef Bosau detlef.bosau at web.de>> wrote: > > > > > On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > China has IPv6 for example but I cannot talk to them. > > I don't have to install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day > > someone uses IPv7 (it is their right), I don't have to install > > IPv7. > > The fact that there is a version field doesn't mean that all > > versions are supported. > > > > > > I think, you miss two basic points. > > > > First: There is no such thing as "the" end to end principle. > > Particularly, Internet communication is nothing which happens > > between the communication end points and only there, but most of > > the work is done at the nodes in between. > > > > > > > > This contradicts what you say below. Below you say that you want to avoid > this complexity. Here you say that this the way it is. So I don't > understand you message. > > > > > > > > > I don't see a contradiction here. Avoiding complexity does not mean that > complexity does not exist. > > > > End nodes hardly have to deal with packets. Every now and then, there is a > packet to be sent or to be received. So, end nodes have any time they want > to inspect packets, to interpret them, whatever they want. Routers in the > middle miss this privilege. They may be offered up to millions of packets > each and every second. So, the effort spent for serving a single packet > must be kept as small as possible. > > > > > And of course, there is a huge difference between a core router in the > tier 1 backbone, which has to deal with huge amounts of data, and a simple > soho-box which may well play around with NAT and congestion management and > queue management and all these funny little things which PhD students > change the world with, without being noticed by the latter. > > > > > Hence, although the IETF cannot make the world run IPv6, our common > interest is to switch over to one common protocol in the internet. At least > for the tier 1 backbone or other extremely busy parts of the Internet. > > > > Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for > others. > For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready > to pay the following processing cost for each packet: > > > IPv4 packet comes in. > I remove the header. > I replace it with a IPv9 header. > I route the packet. > (and vice versa) > > Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is just an > example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? > > > > > > > > > > > Second: The Internet is an overlay network by design. We want ONE > > common protocol which is supported by all nodes connected to this > > overlay network. Particularly, it shall not be the intention of > > the Internet to run several protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, > > this happened in the past, happens in the present and is expected > > to happen in the future, however it is not the basic intention. > > The more protocols you run in parallel, the more complex your > > intermediate nodes, which do all the routing work, will be. And > > it's certainly not our goal to make thinks unnecessarily complex. > > > > > > What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that the protocols will > be run in "parallel?" > > > > > > > > > > > > DB > > > > > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Detlef Bosau > > Galileistra?e 30 > > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > > > > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > > > > skype: detlef.bosau > > ICQ: 566129673 > > detlef.bosau at web.de > > http://www.detlef-bosau.de > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.content-based-science.org > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Detlef Bosau > > Galileistra?e 30 > > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > > skype: detlef.bosau > > ICQ: 566129673 > > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > > > > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/4bb2ac64/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:44:22 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:44:22 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <5054AA71.9050702@informatik.haw-hamburg.de> References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <50549492.8000404@web.de> <5054AA71.9050702@informatik.haw-hamburg.de> Message-ID: I did not want to enter in design details but they are (roughly) in the draft paper that I provided in the original post, if you need it. It is not tunneling. What I am seeking is not novelty. I see a problem. That's all. On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 7:18 PM, Thomas C. Schmidt < schmidt at informatik.haw-hamburg.de> wrote: > Hi, > > I don't want to pick on details along the line of this discussion. > > What seems worthwhile noting: These headers in IP do carry some > information relevant for routing. If you rip off the IPv4 header, replace > it by IPv9, then route to an IPv4 domain again (with ripping and > replacing), will be the same IPv4 header restored again? And if so, i.e., > IPv9 headers carry equivalent information to that of IPv4 headers, why do > we need IPv9? > > Alternatively, if you actually speak about tunneling, I don't see much > novelty in it. > > Cheers, > > Thomas > > > On 15.09.2012 16:45, Detlef Bosau wrote: > >> On 09/15/2012 03:57 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Your mistake here is the illusion that you can take this decision for >>> others. >>> For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country >>> >> >> >> Nobody will hinder you. >> >> and for this I am ready to pay the following processing cost for each >>> packet: >>> >>> IPv4 packet comes in. >>> I remove the header. >>> I replace it with a IPv9 header. >>> I route the packet. >>> (and vice versa) >>> >> >> Please feel perfectly free to do so. >> >> >>> Details are in the paper (presented in the original post). This is >>> just an example of what I want to do... Who can say no and why? >>> >>> >>> >> The question is, wether you'll find and ISP who offers IPv9 access to >> the Internet. >> >> > -- > > Prof. Dr. Thomas C. Schmidt > ? Hamburg University of Applied Sciences Berliner Tor 7 ? > ? Dept. Informatik, Internet Technologies Group 20099 Hamburg, Germany ? > ? http://www.haw-hamburg.de/inet Fon: +49-40-42875-8452? > ? http://www.informatik.haw-**hamburg.de/~schmidt Fax: > +49-40-42875-8409 ? > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/89ab0b0d/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 10:47:25 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:47:25 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <1347720191.55560.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <1347720191.55560.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No this is wrong. Check the paper please. The routers run only one IP. Never change a core router. Never change an existing Internet. Add another Internet IPv6 or IPv7 is you wish as you wish. Cheers, On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 5:43 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: > a simple soho-box which may well play > > around with NAT and congestion management and queue > > management and all these funny little things which PhD > > students change the world with, without being noticed by the > > latter. > > Hey Detlaf ;^) How did you guess what I have been doing over the summer? > > > > What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that > > the protocols will be run in "parallel?" > > I got this one. At the core routers the different IPvXs would have to run > in parallel. The header format is different because of address lengths > etc. The router must examine the version number and then act > appropriately. The router must understand the header format of all packets > that it will forward. > > You have a chicken, and you have an egg. Why would a company like Cisco > build routers that understand IPv7 - IPv42? They built IPv6 in because > they had a solid business reason. There weren't enough IPv4 addresses. > IPv6 = more customers. So they built it and then the customers bought it. > > Since there are plenty of IPv6 addresses, all that is left to convince the > core to change is some random "feature set". Not a very strong business > reason. They will not build it. > > You can change the world, but you cannot change a core router ;^) > > ...Daniel (PhD student, who is busy changing the world ;^) > > > --- On Sat, 9/15/12, Detlef Bosau wrote: > > > From: Detlef Bosau > > Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP > > To: > > Cc: end2end-interest at postel.org > > Date: Saturday, September 15, 2012, 6:20 AM > > On 09/15/2012 06:52 AM, Pars Mutaf > > wrote: > > > Hi Detlef, > > > > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 2:35 AM, Detlef Bosau > > > > wrote: > > > > > > On 09/13/2012 06:38 AM, Pars > > Mutaf wrote: > > > > > > Hi Andrew, > > > > > > China has IPv6 > > for example but I cannot talk to them. > > > I don't have to > > install IPv6 to talk to them. If one day > > > someone uses IPv7 > > (it is their right), I don't have to install > > > IPv7. > > > The fact that > > there is a version field doesn't mean that all > > > versions are > > supported. > > > > > > > > > I think, you miss two basic > > points. > > > > > > First: There is no such thing > > as "the" end to end principle. > > > Particularly, Internet > > communication is nothing which happens > > > between the communication end > > points and only there, but most of > > > the work is done at the nodes > > in between. > > > > > > > > > > > > This contradicts what you say below. Below you say that > > you want to avoid this complexity. Here you say that this > > the way it is. So I don't understand you message. > > > > > > > > > I don't see a contradiction here. Avoiding complexity does > > not mean that complexity does not exist. > > > > End nodes hardly have to deal with packets. Every now and > > then, there is a packet to be sent or to be received. So, > > end nodes have any time they want to inspect packets, to > > interpret them, whatever they want. Routers in the middle > > miss this privilege. They may be offered up to millions of > > packets each and every second. So, the effort spent for > > serving a single packet must be kept as small as possible. > > > > And of course, there is a huge difference between a core > > router in the tier 1 backbone, which has to deal with huge > > amounts of data, and a simple soho-box which may well play > > around with NAT and congestion management and queue > > management and all these funny little things which PhD > > students change the world with, without being noticed by the > > latter. > > > > Hence, although the IETF cannot make the world run IPv6, our > > common interest is to switch over to one common protocol in > > the internet. At least for the tier 1 backbone or other > > extremely busy parts of the Internet. > > > > > > > > > Second: The Internet is an > > overlay network by design. We want ONE > > > common protocol which is > > supported by all nodes connected to this > > > overlay network. Particularly, > > it shall not be the intention of > > > the Internet to run several > > protocols in parallel. Nevertheless, > > > this happened in the past, > > happens in the present and is expected > > > to happen in the future, > > however it is not the basic intention. > > > The more protocols you run in > > parallel, the more complex your > > > intermediate nodes, which do > > all the routing work, will be. And > > > it's certainly not our goal to > > make thinks unnecessarily complex. > > > > > > > > > What do you mean by "parallel"? Why do you assume that > > the protocols will be run in "parallel?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > DB > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Detlef Bosau > > > Galileistra?e 30 > > > 70565 Stuttgart > > > > Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > skype: detlef.bosau > > > > > > > > > ICQ: 566129673 > > > detlef.bosau at web.de > > > > > http://www.detlef-bosau.de > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Detlef Bosau > > Galileistra?e 30 > > 70565 Stuttgart > > > > Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > > > > > > mobile: +49 > > 172 6819937 > > > > > > skype: > > detlef.bosau > > > > > > ICQ: > > 566129673 > > detlef.bosau at web.de > > > > http://www.detlef-bosau.de > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/2488e2d5/attachment.html From finlayson at live555.com Sat Sep 15 10:54:20 2012 From: finlayson at live555.com (Ross Finlayson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 10:54:20 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92A0AEFC-02AF-498B-BCBA-D5A21A0848A6@live555.com> Even better, perhaps professional mailing lists like this should start rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email addresses ("@gmail.com", "@yahoo.com", etc.)... From detlef.bosau at web.de Sat Sep 15 12:26:05 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:26:05 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <1347720191.55560.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1347720191.55560.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5054D64D.9060005@web.de> On 09/15/2012 04:43 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: > a simple soho-box which may well play >> around with NAT and congestion management and queue >> management and all these funny little things which PhD >> students change the world with, without being noticed by the >> latter. > Hey Detlaf ;^) How did you guess what I have been doing over the summer? Clearvoyance. Pure clearvoyance ;-) Nevertheless, I'm yet to understand the problem Pars Mustaf is about to solve. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From salo at saloits.com Sat Sep 15 13:04:06 2012 From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 15:04:06 -0500 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> Message-ID: <5054DF36.50609@saloits.com> On 9/15/2012 8:57 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready > to pay the following processing cost for each packet: > > IPv4 packet comes in. > I remove the header. > I replace it with a IPv9 header. > I route the packet. > (and vice versa) Of course you can do this. The IETF does precisely this with, for example, the 6lowpan protocol. The principal difference is that the IETF isn't going to call 6lowpan a new version of IP. As the IETF 6lowpan work has shown, there are some good reasons for running another network layer protocol within a network. In the case of 6lowpan, it is to create a network protocol that works with very small frames, very little bandwidth, no inexpensive multicast, nodes that sleep much of the time, and a few other constraints. Of course, this is the IETF, so we don't view 6lowpan as anything other than IPv6, although a typical IPv4/IPv6 router will choke on a 6lowpan packet. As the 6lowpan work has shown, there are a lot of challenges to running your own private network protocol. Here is some of the challenges that come to mind, although there are others: o Your private protocol has to be close enough to IPv4 and/or IPv6 that you can reasonably translate between IPv4/IPv6 and your private protocol. I assume that you want your private protocol to interoperate (through gateways) with the global IPv4 and/or IPv6 Internet. o Gateways have to maintain a bunch of state to support the mapping between IPv4/IPv6 and your private protocol. Some of this mapping can be static (e.g., 6lowpan's static mapping between port numbers), although some of this information is dynamic. For example, your gateway has to maintain mappings between IPv4/IPv6 addresses and the addresses you are using internally. There is a bit of tedium to maintaining these mappings. (Personally, I think this translation might work better if the gateways maintain even more state. This might be a good research topic...) o You have to figure out what to do about naming. (6lowpan pretty much punted on this.) Will your network use the existing DNS system? How will IPv4/IPv6 hosts learn the name and the IPv4/IPV6 address of your hosts. Oh, and how will IPv4/IPv6 addresses be assigned to your hosts, since the existing Internet won't be able to route to your private addresses. I assume that you aren't going to use IPv4 or IPv6 addresses internally. What will happen when one of your hosts requests the address of an IPv4/IPv6 host? Will this address need to be translated into an internal address? If so, where is this translation done? o All of this stuff works much better if your network is an edge network. Trying to be a transit network for IPv4/IPv6 traffic probably gets pretty hard. o What are you going to do about higher-level protocols. For example, will your hosts implement a pretty standard TCP? If not, will your hosts interoperate with IPv4/IPv6 TCP hosts? You can certainly translate between TCP and your own favorite transport protocol, but your protocol has to be close enough to TCP for a reasonable mapping to be possible. There has been quite of bit of work done on this topic; start with "performance enhancing proxies". o How are multiple gateways going to work? A gateway has to maintain a bunch of state: at a minimum address mappings. Will you support multiple gateways? If so, will they work well? Will you try to synchronize state between all of your gateways? Or, if a flow moves from one gateway to another, do you start a process that will create the state in the new gateway? Can you make movement between gateways invisible to your hosts? To your transport protocol? To your application? Will you handle asymmetric routing (in through one gateway and out through another)? Will you permit a flow to be distributed among multiple gateways simultaneously? You might want to thoroughly examine 6lowpan and understand what it does, what it doesn't do, and what it doesn't do, but could. In my view 6lowpan is sort of an initial, fairly limited attempt at translating between IPv6 and a private network protocol. It turns out that this translation is difficult to do well. I believe that this topic of how to translate between IPv4/IPv6 and a private network protocol, and maybe private higher-level protocols, would benefit from some comprehensive thought: there are a lot of existing techniques that have been developed, but I don't think that they have been pulled together into one integrated solution. One lesson from the 6lowpan work is that all of this is easier to sell if you call your new protocol an optimized or an enhanced version of IPv6, rather than a new version of IP... -tjs From detlef.bosau at web.de Sat Sep 15 13:21:31 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 22:21:31 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <50549492.8000404@web.de> <5054AA71.9050702@informatik.haw-hamburg.de> Message-ID: <5054E34B.70007@web.de> On 09/15/2012 07:44 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > I did not want to enter in design details but they > are (roughly) in the draft paper that I provided in the original post, > if you need it. > > It is not tunneling. > > What I am seeking is not novelty. I see a problem. That's all. Which one? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Sep 15 18:52:37 2012 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 21:52:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP Message-ID: <20120916015237.29A3D18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ross Finlayson > Even better, perhaps professional mailing lists like this should start > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email addresses ("@gmail.com", > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our serious contributors also use gmail, etc, these days. From: Detlef Bosau > I'm yet to understand the problem Pars Mustaf is about to solve. I think you meant 'thinks they can solve'. Noel From dhavey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 20:20:13 2012 From: dhavey at yahoo.com (Daniel Havey) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 20:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <20120916015237.29A3D18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 9/15/12, Noel Chiappa wrote: > From: Noel Chiappa > Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP > To: end2end-interest at postel.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Date: Saturday, September 15, 2012, 6:52 PM > ? ? > From: Ross > Finlayson > > ? ? > Even better, perhaps professional mailing > lists like this should start > ? ? > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email > addresses ("@gmail.com", > ? ? > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... > > Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our > serious contributors > also use gmail, etc, these days. > Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) ...Daniel > > ? ? From: Detlef Bosau > > ? ? > I'm yet to understand the problem Pars > Mustaf is about to solve. > > I think you meant 'thinks they can solve'. > > ??? Noel > From finlayson at live555.com Sat Sep 15 22:08:10 2012 From: finlayson at live555.com (Ross Finlayson) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2012 22:08:10 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >> lists like this should start >> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >> addresses ("@gmail.com", >> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >> >> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >> serious contributors >> also use gmail, etc, these days. >> > Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that use other domain names. See:http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/tEaJstfhzeI The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@aol.com" addresses, etc.) Ross. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120915/50dda0bd/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 22:21:21 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 08:21:21 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <5054DF36.50609@saloits.com> References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <5054DF36.50609@saloits.com> Message-ID: Hi Timothy, Please see in-line. On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Timothy J. Salo wrote: > On 9/15/2012 8:57 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready >> to pay the following processing cost for each packet: >> >> IPv4 packet comes in. >> I remove the header. >> I replace it with a IPv9 header. >> I route the packet. >> (and vice versa) >> > > Of course you can do this. The IETF does precisely this with, for > example, the 6lowpan protocol. The principal difference is that > the IETF isn't going to call 6lowpan a new version of IP. > > As the IETF 6lowpan work has shown, there are some good reasons for > running another network layer protocol within a network. In the case > of 6lowpan, it is to create a network protocol that works with very > small frames, very little bandwidth, no inexpensive multicast, nodes > that sleep much of the time, and a few other constraints. Of course, > this is the IETF, so we don't view 6lowpan as anything other than IPv6, > although a typical IPv4/IPv6 router will choke on a 6lowpan packet. > I am not sure to understand the similarity with 6lowpan. 6lowpan is IPv6. I am talking about using any IP version. > > As the 6lowpan work has shown, there are a lot of challenges to > running your own private network protocol. Here is some of the > challenges that come to mind, although there are others: > > o Your private protocol has to be close enough to IPv4 and/or IPv6 > that you can reasonably translate between IPv4/IPv6 and your private > protocol. I assume that you want your private protocol to > interoperate (through gateways) with the global IPv4 and/or IPv6 > Internet. > > Yes we will change the IPv4 header and replace it with a IPv6 header and vice versa. Or IPv7. > o Gateways have to maintain a bunch of state to support the mapping > between IPv4/IPv6 and your private protocol. Some of this mapping > can be static (e.g., 6lowpan's static mapping between port numbers), > although some of this information is dynamic. For example, your > gateway has to maintain mappings between IPv4/IPv6 addresses and the > addresses you are using internally. There is a bit of tedium to > maintaining these mappings. (Personally, I think this translation > might work better if the gateways maintain even more state. This > might be a good research topic...) > > This is my problem. Again, what is this illusion that you can take design decisions for me? ***Enable technology instead*** No one asked you to design my IP. ***Enable technology instead*** Discrete IP is one way to enable IP technology. If there were Discrete IP today, many people would be using IPv6 already and doing research on new IP versions freely (without touching the IPv4 Internet). > o You have to figure out what to do about naming. (6lowpan pretty > much punted on this.) Will your network use the existing DNS > system? How will IPv4/IPv6 hosts learn the name and the IPv4/IPV6 > address of your hosts. Oh, and how will IPv4/IPv6 addresses be > assigned to your hosts, since the existing Internet won't be able > to route to your private addresses. I assume that you aren't going > to use IPv4 or IPv6 addresses internally. What will happen when one > of your hosts requests the address of an IPv4/IPv6 host? Will this > address need to be translated into an internal address? If so, where > is this translation done? > > DNS needs modification probably, we also need a new identifier. This is much better than changing the whole Internet. Do not touch the existing core network, change the end-nodes instead. > o All of this stuff works much better if your network is an edge > network. Trying to be a transit network for IPv4/IPv6 traffic > probably gets pretty hard. > > o What are you going to do about higher-level protocols. For example, > will your hosts implement a pretty standard TCP? If not, will your > hosts interoperate with IPv4/IPv6 TCP hosts? You can certainly > translate between TCP and your own favorite transport protocol, but > your protocol has to be close enough to TCP for a reasonable mapping > to be possible. There has been quite of bit of work done on this > topic; start with "performance enhancing proxies". > > TCP will probably change. Again, this is better than changing the whole core Internet and disabling technology. IETF made a mistake 20 years ago. The right way to save the Internet was not Inventing a new IP version, it was reviewing the IP architecture. Saying that it is now too late is a technology blocker approach. TCP assumes that source and destination addresses have the same IP version. We need another identification layer above IP. A new global identifier which is not used for routing. We all know since long years that IP address is not an identifier. > o How are multiple gateways going to work? A gateway has to maintain > a bunch of state: at a minimum address mappings. Will you support > multiple gateways? If so, will they work well? Will you try to > synchronize state between all of your gateways? Or, if a flow > moves from one gateway to another, do you start a process that will > create the state in the new gateway? Can you make movement between > gateways invisible to your hosts? To your transport protocol? To > your application? Will you handle asymmetric routing (in through one > gateway and out through another)? Will you permit a flow to be > distributed among multiple gateways simultaneously? > Ideally, everybody takes care about their own network. There is no global design, no global decision for others. I don't know yet about all details. My question here for the moment is "What is good for the Internet?" Discrete or Continuous IP? > > You might want to thoroughly examine 6lowpan and understand what it > does, what it doesn't do, and what it doesn't do, but could. > > In my view 6lowpan is sort of an initial, fairly limited attempt at > translating between IPv6 and a private network protocol. It turns out > that this translation is difficult to do well. I believe that this > topic of how to translate between IPv4/IPv6 and a private network > protocol, and maybe private higher-level protocols, would benefit from > some comprehensive thought: there are a lot of existing techniques that > have been developed, but I don't think that they have been pulled > together into one integrated solution. > > One lesson from the 6lowpan work is that all of this is easier to > sell if you call your new protocol an optimized or an enhanced version > of IPv6, rather than a new version of IP... > I am not sure to understand the similarity with 6lowpan. 6lowpan is IPv6. I am talking about using any IP version. > > -tjs > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/ef6e0d78/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 23:15:59 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:15:59 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Ross, This is off topic no? Thanks, On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: > > Even better, perhaps professional mailing > > lists like this should start > > > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email > > addresses ("@gmail.com", > > > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... > > > Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our > > serious contributors > > also use gmail, etc, these days. > > > Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) > > > Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) > > Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that > use other domain names. See: > http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/tEaJstfhzeI > > The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't > mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" email > address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not particularly > relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@aol.com" addresses, > etc.) > > Ross. > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/2b4bd2a9/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sat Sep 15 23:36:46 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 09:36:46 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: For those who forgot the original post, the problem that I see is: IETF is blocking technology. 1. No one should touch the existing IPv4 Internet (except those who run it) 2. IPv6 cannot be deployed 3. IPv6 means IP research is done. This is very harmful. IETF's role is not making design decisions for others, it is ***enabling new technology***. On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Hi Ross, > > This is off topic no? > > Thanks, > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: > >> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >> >> lists like this should start >> >> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >> >> addresses ("@gmail.com", >> >> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >> >> >> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >> >> serious contributors >> >> also use gmail, etc, these days. >> >> >> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) >> >> >> Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) >> >> Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that >> use other domain names. See: >> http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/tEaJstfhzeI >> >> The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't >> mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" >> email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not >> particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@ >> aol.com" addresses, etc.) >> >> Ross. >> >> > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/6bfe0a8f/attachment.html From dhavey at yahoo.com Sun Sep 16 00:00:26 2012 From: dhavey at yahoo.com (Daniel Havey) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 00:00:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP Message-ID: <1347778826.96112.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Ross, This is off topic no? Thanks, Yes, it is ;^) and school mail systems are horrible. It's built from squirrel mail and is about as user friendly as an of an angry squirrel. I would rather be excluded from the list than forced to use such a goofy tool. On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson wrote: ? ? > Even better, perhaps professional mailing lists like this should start ? ? > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email addresses ("@gmail.com", ? ? > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our serious contributors also use gmail, etc, these days. Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that use other domain names. ?See:http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/tEaJstfhzeI The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't mind your email being scanned :-). ?The problem is the "@gmail.com" email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not particularly relevant. ?(Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@aol.com" addresses, etc.) Ross. -- http://www.content-based-science.org From michawe at ifi.uio.no Sun Sep 16 02:13:17 2012 From: michawe at ifi.uio.no (Michael Welzl) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:13:17 +0200 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> So I changed the subject, to match - I wanted to add, to that: I once had a research project with partners in China. We wanted to use such a policy for our own lists, but soon gave up because we found that many of our Chinese partners use such email domains *to get their mails across*. That is, they found emails from their official affiliation address to often be killed by spam filters or whatnot. And the domains included a big company and a big University. Thus, I think that such filtering would clearly be unacceptable. Cheers, Michael On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Hi Ross, > > This is off topic no? > > Thanks, > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson > wrote: >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >>> lists like this should start >>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >>> addresses ("@gmail.com", >>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >>> >>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >>> serious contributors >>> also use gmail, etc, these days. >>> >> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) > > Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) > > Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses > that use other domain names. See:http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/ > gmail/tEaJstfhzeI > > The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you > don't mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the > "@gmail.com" email address suffix, which advertises to the world > that you're not particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", > "@hotmail.com", "@aol.com" addresses, etc.) > > Ross. > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > From michawe at ifi.uio.no Sun Sep 16 02:21:09 2012 From: michawe at ifi.uio.no (Michael Welzl) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:21:09 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> Hi, This discussion seems to be about "what would be good design" vs. pragmatic "what can we standardize and deploy now". I think that your proposal falls in the first category, like the PlutArch paper that Jon Crowcroft has pointed to, and like John Day's book! http://www.amazon.com/Patterns-Network-Architecture-Return-Fundamentals/ I think that this book covers a lot of what you'd like to see, in great detail. In the second category, I think the IETF is doing the best it can, e.g. with point solutions like indeed 6lowpan and recent things happening in the IRTF RRG. If you think that these solutions are not far reaching enough, why not make a concrete proposal? Simply saying "the architecture is wrong, it should be X" is fine, but then you're in the world of research where I'd say what you propose is nothing new. Cheers, Michael On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:36 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > For those who forgot the original post, the problem that I see is: > > IETF is blocking technology. > > 1. No one should touch the existing IPv4 Internet (except those who > run it) > 2. IPv6 cannot be deployed > 3. IPv6 means IP research is done. This is very harmful. > > IETF's role is not making design decisions for others, it is > ***enabling new technology***. > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Pars Mutaf > wrote: > Hi Ross, > > This is off topic no? > > Thanks, > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson > wrote: >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >>> lists like this should start >>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >>> addresses ("@gmail.com", >>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >>> >>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >>> serious contributors >>> also use gmail, etc, these days. >>> >> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) > > Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) > > Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses > that use other domain names. See:http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/ > gmail/tEaJstfhzeI > > The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you > don't mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the > "@gmail.com" email address suffix, which advertises to the world > that you're not particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", > "@hotmail.com", "@aol.com" addresses, etc.) > > Ross. > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 02:49:51 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:49:51 +0300 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to an organization designing the Internet. as if Internet belonged to you ... On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Michael Welzl wrote: > So I changed the subject, to match - > > I wanted to add, to that: I once had a research project with partners in > China. We wanted to use such a policy for our own lists, but soon gave up > because we found that many of our Chinese partners use such email domains > *to get their mails across*. That is, they found emails from their official > affiliation address to often be killed by spam filters or whatnot. And the > domains included a big company and a big University. > > Thus, I think that such filtering would clearly be unacceptable. > > Cheers, > Michael > > > On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > Hi Ross, >> >> This is off topic no? >> >> Thanks, >> >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson >> wrote: >> >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >>>> lists like this should start >>>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >>>> addresses ("@gmail.com", >>>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >>>> >>>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >>>> serious contributors >>>> also use gmail, etc, these days. >>>> >>>> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) >>> >> >> Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) >> >> Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that >> use other domain names. See:http://productforums.** >> google.com/forum/#!topic/**gmail/tEaJstfhzeI >> >> The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't >> mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" >> email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not >> particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@ >> aol.com" addresses, etc.) >> >> Ross. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://www.content-based-**science.org >> >> > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/6162ac97/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 03:59:04 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:59:04 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: Normally, we should come with a solution, implement it, it becomes popular, everybody uses it, then IETF standardizes it. Like SSL. The rest is IETF's mental illusions. IPv6 etc. Trying to mandate a solution that no one asked for. If you forget the two elephants (IETF totally ignored them) happiness can't be. So I don't know what I am doing here... This is a useless place. On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:21 PM, Michael Welzl wrote: > Hi, > > This discussion seems to be about "what would be good design" vs. > pragmatic "what can we standardize and deploy now". > > I think that your proposal falls in the first category, like the PlutArch > paper that Jon Crowcroft has pointed to, and like John Day's book! > http://www.amazon.com/**Patterns-Network-Architecture-** > Return-Fundamentals/ > I think that this book covers a lot of what you'd like to see, in great > detail. > > In the second category, I think the IETF is doing the best it can, e.g. > with point solutions like indeed 6lowpan and recent things happening in the > IRTF RRG. > If you think that these solutions are not far reaching enough, why not > make a concrete proposal? > > Simply saying "the architecture is wrong, it should be X" is fine, but > then you're in the world of research where I'd say what you propose is > nothing new. > > Cheers, > Michael > > > > On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:36 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > For those who forgot the original post, the problem that I see is: >> >> IETF is blocking technology. >> >> 1. No one should touch the existing IPv4 Internet (except those who run >> it) >> 2. IPv6 cannot be deployed >> 3. IPv6 means IP research is done. This is very harmful. >> >> IETF's role is not making design decisions for others, it is ***enabling >> new technology***. >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 9:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> Hi Ross, >> >> This is off topic no? >> >> Thanks, >> >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson >> wrote: >> >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >>>> lists like this should start >>>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >>>> addresses ("@gmail.com", >>>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >>>> >>>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >>>> serious contributors >>>> also use gmail, etc, these days. >>>> >>>> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) >>> >> >> Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) >> >> Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that >> use other domain names. See:http://productforums.** >> google.com/forum/#!topic/**gmail/tEaJstfhzeI >> >> The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't >> mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" >> email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not >> particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@ >> aol.com" addresses, etc.) >> >> Ross. >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://www.content-based-**science.org >> >> >> >> >> -- >> http://www.content-based-**science.org >> >> > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/a0c68fad/attachment.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Sun Sep 16 04:34:58 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:34:58 +0100 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: anyone has the right to filter email - we all have work to do and have to maximise signal-to-noise ratio -I'm leaving this list again because there's too much meta-discussion and not enough concrete technical material that;s the ultimate way I can filter out stuff, but frankly, I think the fair thing to do would be have an exam you have to pass before you're to use the resources of all the people on large mail lists it isn't free to send, its just the sender doesn't pay, the receivers do with their time. as with IP in the network layer. a design flaw imho In missive , Pars Mutaf typed: >>--20cf307f39aa0fc3b804c9ce945f >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to an >>organization designing the Internet. >> >>as if Internet belonged to you ... >> >>On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Michael Welzl wrote: >> >>> So I changed the subject, to match - >>> >>> I wanted to add, to that: I once had a research project with partners in >>> China. We wanted to use such a policy for our own lists, but soon gave up >>> because we found that many of our Chinese partners use such email domains >>> *to get their mails across*. That is, they found emails from their official >>> affiliation address to often be killed by spam filters or whatnot. And the >>> domains included a big company and a big University. >>> >>> Thus, I think that such filtering would clearly be unacceptable. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Michael >>> >>> >>> On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: >>> >>> Hi Ross, >>>> >>>> This is off topic no? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >>>>>> lists like this should start >>>>>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >>>>>> addresses ("@gmail.com", >>>>>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >>>>>> >>>>>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >>>>>> serious contributors >>>>>> also use gmail, etc, these days. >>>>>> >>>>>> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) >>>>> >>>> >>>> Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) >>>> >>>> Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that >>>> use other domain names. See:http://productforums.** >>>> google.com/forum/#!topic/**gmail/tEaJstfhzeI >>>> >>>> The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't >>>> mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" >>>> email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not >>>> particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@ >>>> aol.com" addresses, etc.) >>>> >>>> Ross. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://www.content-based-**science.org >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--20cf307f39aa0fc3b804c9ce945f >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to an org= >>anization designing the Internet.

as if Internet belonged to you ..= >>.

On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mich= >>ael Welzl <>t=3D"_blank">michawe at ifi.uio.no> wrote:
>>
>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So I changed the subject, to match -
>>
>>I wanted to add, to that: I once had a research project with partners in Ch= >>ina. We wanted to use such a policy for our own lists, but soon gave up bec= >>ause we found that many of our Chinese partners use such email domains *to = >>get their mails across*. That is, they found emails from their official aff= >>iliation address to often be killed by spam filters or whatnot. And the dom= >>ains included a big company and a big University.
>> >>
>>Thus, I think that such filtering would clearly be unacceptable.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Michael
>>
>>
>>On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote:
>>
>>
>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>Hi Ross,
>>
>>This is off topic no?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson <>yson at live555.com" target=3D"_blank">finlayson at live555.com> wrote:>> >>
>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>=A0 =A0 > Even better, perhaps professional mailing
>>lists like this should start
>>=A0 =A0 > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email
>>addresses ("@gmail.com<= >>/a>",
>>=A0 =A0 > "@yahoo.co= >>m", etc.)...
>>
>>Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our
>>serious contributors
>>also use gmail, etc, these days.
>>
>>
>>Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-)>> >>
>>
>>Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-)
>>
>>Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses tha= >>t use other domain names. =A0See:>/forum/#%21topic/gmail/tEaJstfhzeI" target=3D"_blank">http://productforums.= >>google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/tEaJstfhzeI
>> >>
>>The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you do= >>n't mind your email being scanned :-). =A0The problem is the "@>href=3D"http://gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">gmail.com" email addre= >>ss suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not particularly r= >>elevant. =A0(Ditto for "@>">yahoo.com", "@>nk">hotmail.com", "@>nk">aol.com" addresses, etc.)
>> >>
>>Ross.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>http://w= >>ww.content-based-science.org
>>
>>
>>
>>



--
>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc= >>e.org

>> >>--20cf307f39aa0fc3b804c9ce945f-- cheers jon From detlef.bosau at web.de Sun Sep 16 04:36:41 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:36:41 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <20120916015237.29A3D18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20120916015237.29A3D18C0B7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5055B9C9.3000901@web.de> On 09/16/2012 03:52 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > From: Detlef Bosau > > > I'm yet to understand the problem Pars Mustaf is about to solve. > > I think you meant 'thinks they can solve'. > > Noel I sometimes leave out smileys ;-) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From rdroms at cisco.com Sun Sep 16 05:04:08 2012 From: rdroms at cisco.com (Ralph Droms (rdroms)) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:04:08 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9A1C657C-94BD-4531-B7E1-5C89B573F78B@cisco.com> On Sep 16, 2012, at 1:08 AM 9/16/12, Ross Finlayson wrote: >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >>> lists like this should start >>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >>> addresses ("@gmail.com", >>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >>> >>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >>> serious contributors >>> also use gmail, etc, these days. >>> >> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) > > Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) > > Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that use other domain names. See:http://productforums.google.com/forum/#!topic/gmail/tEaJstfhzeI > > The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@aol.com" addresses, etc.) This discussion has taken an interesting turn. We are supposed to be individual contributors, not an employee or otherwise associated with @irrelevant-domain.example We establish our relevance, or lack thereof, through a reputation based on the contents of our contributions. I use "rdroms.ietf at gmail.com" as my address in IETF communication to help with the convenient fiction that I am an independent contributor to the IETF, without relying on my job at Cisco for my reputation. I may or may not be relevant, but that would be because of my reputation, not because my e-mail address ends in "gmail.com". I recognize that end2end-interest is not affiliated with the IETF< but I think the principles apply. And, before you jump on my use of "rdroms at cisco.com" for this e-mail list, my subscription here predates my use of "rdroms.ietf at gmail.com" and I've never gotten around to updating it. Think about it - seriously, how many of you would ascribe value to this post depending on whether it comes from "rdroms at cisco.com" or "rdroms.ietf at gmail.com"? - Ralph > > Ross. > From rdroms at cisco.com Sun Sep 16 05:07:50 2012 From: rdroms at cisco.com (Ralph Droms (rdroms)) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:07:50 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <5054DF36.50609@saloits.com> Message-ID: On Sep 16, 2012, at 1:21 AM 9/16/12, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Hi Timothy, > > Please see in-line. > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Timothy J. Salo wrote: > On 9/15/2012 8:57 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready > to pay the following processing cost for each packet: > > IPv4 packet comes in. > I remove the header. > I replace it with a IPv9 header. > I route the packet. > (and vice versa) > > Of course you can do this. The IETF does precisely this with, for > example, the 6lowpan protocol. The principal difference is that > the IETF isn't going to call 6lowpan a new version of IP. > > As the IETF 6lowpan work has shown, there are some good reasons for > running another network layer protocol within a network. In the case > of 6lowpan, it is to create a network protocol that works with very > small frames, very little bandwidth, no inexpensive multicast, nodes > that sleep much of the time, and a few other constraints. Of course, > this is the IETF, so we don't view 6lowpan as anything other than IPv6, > although a typical IPv4/IPv6 router will choke on a 6lowpan packet. > > I am not sure to understand the similarity with 6lowpan. 6lowpan is IPv6. > I am talking about using any IP version. The principles in Timothy's post are correct; 6lowpan isn't such a great example. NAT64 is a better example. Sure, you can replace an IPv4 header with an IPv6 header. That's what layered design and architecture is about, right? But there are many little details that keep NAT64 from working well. - Ralph > > > > As the 6lowpan work has shown, there are a lot of challenges to > running your own private network protocol. Here is some of the > challenges that come to mind, although there are others: > > o Your private protocol has to be close enough to IPv4 and/or IPv6 > that you can reasonably translate between IPv4/IPv6 and your private > protocol. I assume that you want your private protocol to > interoperate (through gateways) with the global IPv4 and/or IPv6 > Internet. > > > Yes we will change the IPv4 header and replace it with a IPv6 header and vice versa. > Or IPv7. > > > o Gateways have to maintain a bunch of state to support the mapping > between IPv4/IPv6 and your private protocol. Some of this mapping > can be static (e.g., 6lowpan's static mapping between port numbers), > although some of this information is dynamic. For example, your > gateway has to maintain mappings between IPv4/IPv6 addresses and the > addresses you are using internally. There is a bit of tedium to > maintaining these mappings. (Personally, I think this translation > might work better if the gateways maintain even more state. This > might be a good research topic...) > > > This is my problem. Again, what is this illusion that you can take design decisions for me? > ***Enable technology instead*** > > No one asked you to design my IP. ***Enable technology instead*** > > Discrete IP is one way to enable IP technology. If there were Discrete IP today, > many people would be using IPv6 already and doing research on new IP versions > freely (without touching the IPv4 Internet). > > > o You have to figure out what to do about naming. (6lowpan pretty > much punted on this.) Will your network use the existing DNS > system? How will IPv4/IPv6 hosts learn the name and the IPv4/IPV6 > address of your hosts. Oh, and how will IPv4/IPv6 addresses be > assigned to your hosts, since the existing Internet won't be able > to route to your private addresses. I assume that you aren't going > to use IPv4 or IPv6 addresses internally. What will happen when one > of your hosts requests the address of an IPv4/IPv6 host? Will this > address need to be translated into an internal address? If so, where > is this translation done? > > > DNS needs modification probably, we also need a new identifier. > This is much better than changing the whole Internet. Do not touch the > existing core network, change the end-nodes instead. > > > o All of this stuff works much better if your network is an edge > network. Trying to be a transit network for IPv4/IPv6 traffic > probably gets pretty hard. > > o What are you going to do about higher-level protocols. For example, > will your hosts implement a pretty standard TCP? If not, will your > hosts interoperate with IPv4/IPv6 TCP hosts? You can certainly > translate between TCP and your own favorite transport protocol, but > your protocol has to be close enough to TCP for a reasonable mapping > to be possible. There has been quite of bit of work done on this > topic; start with "performance enhancing proxies". > > > TCP will probably change. Again, this is better than changing the whole > core Internet and disabling technology. IETF made a mistake 20 years ago. > The right way to save the Internet was not Inventing a new IP > version, it was reviewing the IP architecture. Saying that it is now too late is > a technology blocker approach. > > TCP assumes that source and destination addresses have the same IP version. > We need another identification layer above IP. A new global identifier which is > not used for routing. We all know since long years that IP address is not an > identifier. > > > o How are multiple gateways going to work? A gateway has to maintain > a bunch of state: at a minimum address mappings. Will you support > multiple gateways? If so, will they work well? Will you try to > synchronize state between all of your gateways? Or, if a flow > moves from one gateway to another, do you start a process that will > create the state in the new gateway? Can you make movement between > gateways invisible to your hosts? To your transport protocol? To > your application? Will you handle asymmetric routing (in through one > gateway and out through another)? Will you permit a flow to be > distributed among multiple gateways simultaneously? > > > Ideally, everybody takes care about their own network. There is no global design, no global > decision for others. I don't know yet about all details. > My question here for the moment is "What is good for the Internet?" > Discrete or Continuous IP? > > > You might want to thoroughly examine 6lowpan and understand what it > does, what it doesn't do, and what it doesn't do, but could. > > In my view 6lowpan is sort of an initial, fairly limited attempt at > translating between IPv6 and a private network protocol. It turns out > that this translation is difficult to do well. I believe that this > topic of how to translate between IPv4/IPv6 and a private network > protocol, and maybe private higher-level protocols, would benefit from > some comprehensive thought: there are a lot of existing techniques that > have been developed, but I don't think that they have been pulled > together into one integrated solution. > > One lesson from the 6lowpan work is that all of this is easier to > sell if you call your new protocol an optimized or an enhanced version > of IPv6, rather than a new version of IP... > > > I am not sure to understand the similarity with 6lowpan. 6lowpan is IPv6. > I am talking about using any IP version. > > > -tjs > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > From bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com Sun Sep 16 05:53:25 2012 From: bmanning at vacation.karoshi.com (bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:53:25 +0000 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <20120916125325.GA31387@vacation.karoshi.com.> Oh, but it does. at least the parts I own and pay for. I get to filter what I like. /bill On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:49:51PM +0300, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to an > organization designing the Internet. > > as if Internet belonged to you ... > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Michael Welzl wrote: > > > So I changed the subject, to match - > > > > I wanted to add, to that: I once had a research project with partners in > > China. We wanted to use such a policy for our own lists, but soon gave up > > because we found that many of our Chinese partners use such email domains > > *to get their mails across*. That is, they found emails from their official > > affiliation address to often be killed by spam filters or whatnot. And the > > domains included a big company and a big University. > > > > Thus, I think that such filtering would clearly be unacceptable. > > > > Cheers, > > Michael > > > > > > On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > > Hi Ross, > >> > >> This is off topic no? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing > >>>> lists like this should start > >>>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email > >>>> addresses ("@gmail.com", > >>>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... > >>>> > >>>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our > >>>> serious contributors > >>>> also use gmail, etc, these days. > >>>> > >>>> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded ;-) > >>> > >> > >> Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) > >> > >> Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses that > >> use other domain names. See:http://productforums.** > >> google.com/forum/#!topic/**gmail/tEaJstfhzeI > >> > >> The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't > >> mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" > >> email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not > >> particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@ > >> aol.com" addresses, etc.) > >> > >> Ross. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> http://www.content-based-**science.org > >> > >> > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org From detlef.bosau at web.de Sun Sep 16 06:19:28 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:19:28 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5055D1E0.9010909@web.de> On 09/16/2012 08:36 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > For those who forgot the original post, the problem that I see is: > > IETF is blocking technology. Which one? > > 1. No one should touch the existing IPv4 Internet (except those who > run it) Many people touch the existing IPv4 Internet. E.g. me, when I turned on my laptop and connected it to the Internet some hours ago. Where is the problem? > 2. IPv6 cannot be deployed This is simply nonsense. > 3. IPv6 means IP research is done. This is very harmful. > Why is research harmful? > IETF's role is not making design decisions for others, it is > ***enabling new technology***. To my understanding, the IETF's role is to be a venue for people who want to propose standards and discuss them. Detlef -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From detlef.bosau at web.de Sun Sep 16 06:29:00 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:29:00 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <5055D41C.2090207@web.de> On 09/16/2012 12:59 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Normally, we should come with a solution, implement it, it becomes > popular, everybody uses it, then IETF standardizes it. Who is "we"? Not only in computer science or in the IT world but in general, communication requires (necessarily!) some basic agreements. Hence, it is worthwile, to make some. E.g. by the IETF. You may feel free to identify open problems and to propose solutions for them. However, up to know you did neither of these two. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From detlef.bosau at web.de Sun Sep 16 06:35:51 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:35:51 +0200 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <5055D5B7.4000700@web.de> On 09/16/2012 11:49 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to > an organization designing the Internet. > > as if Internet belonged to you ... For all times, the "Internet" was proposed to be, and will not work otherwise, a well behaved community. Even some of the technical rules in networking are adopted from human civilization, e.g. in 802.11 you have a rule "listen before talk". So, it might be a viable way, to first: read and listen, second: ask questions and third: come with well considered proposals. And in general, some decency is always a good idea. (E.g. you should avoid reproaches like "The IETF is blocking technolgoy".) Detlef -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From Barry.Constantine at jdsu.com Sun Sep 16 06:44:17 2012 From: Barry.Constantine at jdsu.com (Barry Constantine) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:44:17 +0000 Subject: [e2e] unsubscribe Message-ID: unsubscribe Thank you, Barry Constantine JDSU Communications Test Principal Member Technical Staff 301-325-7069 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/ad9622e8/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 07:08:39 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:08:39 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <5053BF51.1090401@web.de> <505480AC.2010703@web.de> <5054DF36.50609@saloits.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:07 PM, Ralph Droms (rdroms) wrote: > > On Sep 16, 2012, at 1:21 AM 9/16/12, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > Hi Timothy, > > > > Please see in-line. > > > > On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 11:04 PM, Timothy J. Salo > wrote: > > On 9/15/2012 8:57 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > For example me, I want to use IPv9 in my country and for this I am ready > > to pay the following processing cost for each packet: > > > > IPv4 packet comes in. > > I remove the header. > > I replace it with a IPv9 header. > > I route the packet. > > (and vice versa) > > > > Of course you can do this. The IETF does precisely this with, for > > example, the 6lowpan protocol. The principal difference is that > > the IETF isn't going to call 6lowpan a new version of IP. > > > > As the IETF 6lowpan work has shown, there are some good reasons for > > running another network layer protocol within a network. In the case > > of 6lowpan, it is to create a network protocol that works with very > > small frames, very little bandwidth, no inexpensive multicast, nodes > > that sleep much of the time, and a few other constraints. Of course, > > this is the IETF, so we don't view 6lowpan as anything other than IPv6, > > although a typical IPv4/IPv6 router will choke on a 6lowpan packet. > > > > I am not sure to understand the similarity with 6lowpan. 6lowpan is IPv6. > > I am talking about using any IP version. > > The principles in Timothy's post are correct; 6lowpan isn't such a great > example. NAT64 is a better example. Sure, you can replace an IPv4 header > with an IPv6 header. That's what layered design and architecture is about, > right? But there are many little details that keep NAT64 from working well. > How TCP works over NAT64? I can't find doc on this but it sounds different than what I mean. In my proposal TCP doesn't work because TCP assumes that the source and destination addresses have the same IP version. My proposal needs an additional host identification layer above IP. It is a different and long term solution. I propose that we add new Internets to the current one. A new IPv4 Internet (reusing the same IPv4 space, you can reuse yahoo's address at home for example), IPv6, or IPv7 Internets. We can reuse IP addresses because hosts are not identified using IP addresses anymore. If you want to be able to reach new Internets, implement Discrete IP. A host implementing Discrete IP does the following: If the destination host is in the current Internet, use normal IP. If the destination host is in a new Internet (IPv4 or IPv6 or IPv7), use Discrete IP. Details are in the paper: http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > > - Ralph > > > > > > > > > As the 6lowpan work has shown, there are a lot of challenges to > > running your own private network protocol. Here is some of the > > challenges that come to mind, although there are others: > > > > o Your private protocol has to be close enough to IPv4 and/or IPv6 > > that you can reasonably translate between IPv4/IPv6 and your private > > protocol. I assume that you want your private protocol to > > interoperate (through gateways) with the global IPv4 and/or IPv6 > > Internet. > > > > > > Yes we will change the IPv4 header and replace it with a IPv6 header and > vice versa. > > Or IPv7. > > > > > > o Gateways have to maintain a bunch of state to support the mapping > > between IPv4/IPv6 and your private protocol. Some of this mapping > > can be static (e.g., 6lowpan's static mapping between port numbers), > > although some of this information is dynamic. For example, your > > gateway has to maintain mappings between IPv4/IPv6 addresses and the > > addresses you are using internally. There is a bit of tedium to > > maintaining these mappings. (Personally, I think this translation > > might work better if the gateways maintain even more state. This > > might be a good research topic...) > > > > > > This is my problem. Again, what is this illusion that you can take > design decisions for me? > > ***Enable technology instead*** > > > > No one asked you to design my IP. ***Enable technology instead*** > > > > Discrete IP is one way to enable IP technology. If there were Discrete > IP today, > > many people would be using IPv6 already and doing research on new IP > versions > > freely (without touching the IPv4 Internet). > > > > > > o You have to figure out what to do about naming. (6lowpan pretty > > much punted on this.) Will your network use the existing DNS > > system? How will IPv4/IPv6 hosts learn the name and the IPv4/IPV6 > > address of your hosts. Oh, and how will IPv4/IPv6 addresses be > > assigned to your hosts, since the existing Internet won't be able > > to route to your private addresses. I assume that you aren't going > > to use IPv4 or IPv6 addresses internally. What will happen when one > > of your hosts requests the address of an IPv4/IPv6 host? Will this > > address need to be translated into an internal address? If so, where > > is this translation done? > > > > > > DNS needs modification probably, we also need a new identifier. > > This is much better than changing the whole Internet. Do not touch the > > existing core network, change the end-nodes instead. > > > > > > o All of this stuff works much better if your network is an edge > > network. Trying to be a transit network for IPv4/IPv6 traffic > > probably gets pretty hard. > > > > o What are you going to do about higher-level protocols. For example, > > will your hosts implement a pretty standard TCP? If not, will your > > hosts interoperate with IPv4/IPv6 TCP hosts? You can certainly > > translate between TCP and your own favorite transport protocol, but > > your protocol has to be close enough to TCP for a reasonable mapping > > to be possible. There has been quite of bit of work done on this > > topic; start with "performance enhancing proxies". > > > > > > TCP will probably change. Again, this is better than changing the whole > > core Internet and disabling technology. IETF made a mistake 20 years ago. > > The right way to save the Internet was not Inventing a new IP > > version, it was reviewing the IP architecture. Saying that it is now too > late is > > a technology blocker approach. > > > > TCP assumes that source and destination addresses have the same IP > version. > > We need another identification layer above IP. A new global identifier > which is > > not used for routing. We all know since long years that IP address is > not an > > identifier. > > > > > > o How are multiple gateways going to work? A gateway has to maintain > > a bunch of state: at a minimum address mappings. Will you support > > multiple gateways? If so, will they work well? Will you try to > > synchronize state between all of your gateways? Or, if a flow > > moves from one gateway to another, do you start a process that will > > create the state in the new gateway? Can you make movement between > > gateways invisible to your hosts? To your transport protocol? To > > your application? Will you handle asymmetric routing (in through one > > gateway and out through another)? Will you permit a flow to be > > distributed among multiple gateways simultaneously? > > > > > > Ideally, everybody takes care about their own network. There is no > global design, no global > > decision for others. I don't know yet about all details. > > My question here for the moment is "What is good for the Internet?" > > Discrete or Continuous IP? > > > > > > You might want to thoroughly examine 6lowpan and understand what it > > does, what it doesn't do, and what it doesn't do, but could. > > > > In my view 6lowpan is sort of an initial, fairly limited attempt at > > translating between IPv6 and a private network protocol. It turns out > > that this translation is difficult to do well. I believe that this > > topic of how to translate between IPv4/IPv6 and a private network > > protocol, and maybe private higher-level protocols, would benefit from > > some comprehensive thought: there are a lot of existing techniques that > > have been developed, but I don't think that they have been pulled > > together into one integrated solution. > > > > One lesson from the 6lowpan work is that all of this is easier to > > sell if you call your new protocol an optimized or an enhanced version > > of IPv6, rather than a new version of IP... > > > > > > I am not sure to understand the similarity with 6lowpan. 6lowpan is IPv6. > > I am talking about using any IP version. > > > > > > -tjs > > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.content-based-science.org > > > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/6453bf0a/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 07:11:20 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:11:20 +0300 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: <5055cbcb.144ab40a.663f.1d42SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> <5055cbcb.144ab40a.663f.1d42SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Sure you can do this at home ;-) But assuming that everybody will filter the same people is a mental illusion. On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:53 PM, wrote: > > Oh, but it does. at least the parts I own and pay for. I get to filter > what I like. > > /bill > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:49:51PM +0300, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to an > > organization designing the Internet. > > > > as if Internet belonged to you ... > > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Michael Welzl > wrote: > > > > > So I changed the subject, to match - > > > > > > I wanted to add, to that: I once had a research project with partners > in > > > China. We wanted to use such a policy for our own lists, but soon gave > up > > > because we found that many of our Chinese partners use such email > domains > > > *to get their mails across*. That is, they found emails from their > official > > > affiliation address to often be killed by spam filters or whatnot. And > the > > > domains included a big company and a big University. > > > > > > Thus, I think that such filtering would clearly be unacceptable. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Michael > > > > > > > > > On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ross, > > >> > > >> This is off topic no? > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson < > finlayson at live555.com> > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing > > >>>> lists like this should start > > >>>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email > > >>>> addresses ("@gmail.com", > > >>>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... > > >>>> > > >>>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our > > >>>> serious contributors > > >>>> also use gmail, etc, these days. > > >>>> > > >>>> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded > ;-) > > >>> > > >> > > >> Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) > > >> > > >> Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses > that > > >> use other domain names. See:http://productforums.** > > >> google.com/forum/#!topic/**gmail/tEaJstfhzeI > > > >> > > >> The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you don't > > >> mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" > > >> email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not > > >> particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@ > > >> aol.com" addresses, etc.) > > >> > > >> Ross. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> -- > > >> http://www.content-based-**science.org< > http://www.content-based-science.org> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > -- > > http://www.content-based-science.org > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/d8f6e470/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 07:13:54 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:13:54 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <5055D41C.2090207@web.de> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> <5055D41C.2090207@web.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > On 09/16/2012 12:59 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> Normally, we should come with a solution, implement it, it becomes >> popular, everybody uses it, then IETF standardizes it. >> > > Who is "we"? > > Me, you, everybody. > Not only in computer science or in the IT world but in general, > communication requires (necessarily!) some basic agreements. > Hence, it is worthwile, to make some. E.g. by the IETF. > > You may feel free to identify open problems and to propose solutions for > them. However, up to know you did neither of these two. > > The problem is obvious: You shouldn't touch the current Internet. You shouldn't assume that IPv6 is the end of the road. My solution is a good one. > > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/1b7d3d51/attachment.html From randy at psg.com Sun Sep 16 07:18:51 2012 From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 23:18:51 +0900 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: +----------+ | PLEASE | | DO NOT | | FEED THE | | TROLL | +----------+ | | | | .\|.||/.. From detlef.bosau at web.de Sun Sep 16 08:02:35 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:02:35 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> <5055D41C.2090207@web.de> Message-ID: <5055EA0B.2060109@web.de> > My solution is a good one. A solution requires a problem. And you did not point out a problem. For reasons, which are beyond the scope this list, I personally feel deeply offended by trolls like you. Presumably you do not even notice the damage you cause. Detlef -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Sun Sep 16 08:55:27 2012 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 08:55:27 -0700 Subject: [e2e] hobbyist filtering and indiscreet IP (was: About email domains / Re: Discrete IP) In-Reply-To: <92A0AEFC-02AF-498B-BCBA-D5A21A0848A6@live555.com> References: <92A0AEFC-02AF-498B-BCBA-D5A21A0848A6@live555.com> Message-ID: <5055F66F.8030707@dcrocker.net> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing lists like this should start rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email addresses ("@gmail.com", "@yahoo.com", etc.)... This line of thinking fits in nicely with the regular and continuing pattern of proposals for a Final Ultimate Solution to the Spam Problem (FUSSP). Unfortunately: http://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt More broadly, proposals for additions or changes to large-scale systems (and quite a few smaller-scale ones) have a very complex -- and often constantly varying -- dynamic, for achieving success. The tendency is for proposals to assume an adoption model that is far too static and simplistic. Modifying Internet services is a multi-player game and winning those is never trivial. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Sun Sep 16 09:43:26 2012 From: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 17:43:26 +0100 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: <5055D5B7.4000700@web.de> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> <5055D5B7.4000700@web.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > On 09/16/2012 11:49 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to an >> organization designing the Internet. >> >> as if Internet belonged to you ... >> > > For all times, the "Internet" was proposed to be, and will not work > otherwise, a well behaved community. Even some of the technical rules in > networking are adopted from human civilization, e.g. in 802.11 you have a > rule "listen before talk". > > So, it might be a viable way, to > first: read and listen, > second: ask questions and > third: come with well considered proposals. > > And in general, some decency is always a good idea. (E.g. you should avoid > reproaches like "The IETF is blocking technolgoy".) > looks like they are blocking spell checkers still:) i've always wondered why middle boxes only do annoying things - imagine if we had middle boxes that remobed bugs from programmes and fixed grammar and spelling in our tweets, removed inappropriate irony, sarcasm and sardonicism, and intervened in global misunderstandings - truly those would herald the end of end-to-end - of course there aren't enough bits in the version field in IP to accommodate the steps necessary for such an intelligence design to evolve... > > Detlef > > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/c1dc68ec/attachment-0001.html From detlef.bosau at web.de Sun Sep 16 12:32:20 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 21:32:20 +0200 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: <5055D5B7.4000700@web.de> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> <5055D5B7.4000700@web.de> Message-ID: <50562944.9080902@web.de> On 09/16/2012 03:35 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > On 09/16/2012 11:49 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to >> an organization designing the Internet. >> >> as if Internet belonged to you ... > > For all times, the "Internet" was proposed to be, and will not work > otherwise, a well behaved community. Even some of the technical rules > in networking ^^^^^supposed..... I think, I should take some lessons in English... -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From detlef.bosau at web.de Sun Sep 16 12:36:53 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 21:36:53 +0200 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> <5055D5B7.4000700@web.de> Message-ID: <50562A55.2020404@web.de> On 09/16/2012 06:43 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Detlef Bosau > wrote: > > On 09/16/2012 11:49 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter > email to an organization designing the Internet. > > as if Internet belonged to you ... > > > For all times, the "Internet" was proposed to be, and will not > work otherwise, a well behaved community. Even some of the > technical rules in networking are adopted from human civilization, > e.g. in 802.11 you have a rule "listen before talk". > > So, it might be a viable way, to > first: read and listen, > second: ask questions and > third: come with well considered proposals. > > And in general, some decency is always a good idea. (E.g. you > should avoid reproaches like "The IETF is blocking technolgoy".) > > > looks like they are blocking spell checkers still:) You're perfectly right. > > i've always wondered why middle boxes only do annoying things - > imagine if we had middle boxes that remobed bugs from programmes and > fixed grammar and spelling in our tweets, removed inappropriate irony, > sarcasm and sardonicism, and intervened in global misunderstandings - > truly those would herald the end of end-to-end - of course there > aren't enough bits in the version field in IP to accommodate the steps > necessary for such an intelligence design to evolve... May I assure you our compassion. I see the problem. You're british (AFAIK) and so, you sit in between of these folks overseas who cannot speak English. At least one thing, we Germans share with the Americans ;-) Detlef -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From Matt.Mathis at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 12:37:29 2012 From: Matt.Mathis at gmail.com (Matt Mathis) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:37:29 -0700 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> <5055cbcb.144ab40a.663f.1d42SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Yea, I think we should automagically exclude the billion or so people who have only @gmail, @hotmail or @aol addresses. They can't possibly contribute usefully to our conversation, because we are oh so much smarter than that. That said, gmail at least has a "mute" function so you can eliminate ongoing distractions from any thread that has degenerated to the level of the trolls and troll baiters. Thanks, --MM-- The best way to predict the future is to create it. - Alan Kay On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 7:11 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Sure you can do this at home ;-) > > But assuming that everybody will filter the same people is a mental > illusion. > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 3:53 PM, wrote: >> >> >> Oh, but it does. at least the parts I own and pay for. I get to filter >> what I like. >> >> /bill >> >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:49:51PM +0300, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> > Real problem is: Who thinks that he has the right to filter email to an >> > organization designing the Internet. >> > >> > as if Internet belonged to you ... >> > >> > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Michael Welzl >> > wrote: >> > >> > > So I changed the subject, to match - >> > > >> > > I wanted to add, to that: I once had a research project with partners >> > > in >> > > China. We wanted to use such a policy for our own lists, but soon gave >> > > up >> > > because we found that many of our Chinese partners use such email >> > > domains >> > > *to get their mails across*. That is, they found emails from their >> > > official >> > > affiliation address to often be killed by spam filters or whatnot. And >> > > the >> > > domains included a big company and a big University. >> > > >> > > Thus, I think that such filtering would clearly be unacceptable. >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > Michael >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sep 16, 2012, at 8:15 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: >> > > >> > > Hi Ross, >> > >> >> > >> This is off topic no? >> > >> >> > >> Thanks, >> > >> >> > >> On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Ross Finlayson >> > >> >> > >> wrote: >> > >> >> > >>> > Even better, perhaps professional mailing >> > >>>> lists like this should start >> > >>>> > rejecting postings from 'hobbyist' email >> > >>>> addresses ("@gmail.com", >> > >>>> > "@yahoo.com", etc.)... >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Sigh, much as I basically agree with you, a number of our >> > >>>> serious contributors >> > >>>> also use gmail, etc, these days. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Not to mention the PhD students who wouldn't like to be excluded >> > >>>> ;-) >> > >>> >> > >> >> > >> Do these PhD students' schools not have their own domain name? :-) >> > >> >> > >> Note that it's possible to let gmail manage email to/from addresses >> > >> that >> > >> use other domain names. See:http://productforums.** >> > >> >> > >> google.com/forum/#!topic/**gmail/tEaJstfhzeI >> >> > >> >> > >> The problem is not the 'gmail' service per se (provided that you >> > >> don't >> > >> mind your email being scanned :-). The problem is the "@gmail.com" >> > >> email address suffix, which advertises to the world that you're not >> > >> particularly relevant. (Ditto for "@yahoo.com", "@hotmail.com", "@ >> > >> aol.com" addresses, etc.) >> > >> >> > >> Ross. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> -- >> > >> >> > >> http://www.content-based-**science.org >> > >> >> > >> >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > http://www.content-based-science.org > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > From rosannajaimes at cantv.net Sun Sep 16 12:42:06 2012 From: rosannajaimes at cantv.net (rosannajaimes@cantv.net) Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2012 15:12:06 -0430 (VET) Subject: [e2e] unsuscribe Message-ID: <1069555051.78267.1347824526878.JavaMail.gess@webmail-03.datacenter.cha.cantv.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120916/09777382/attachment.html From garmitage at swin.edu.au Sun Sep 16 14:27:52 2012 From: garmitage at swin.edu.au (grenville armitage) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 07:27:52 +1000 Subject: [e2e] About email domains In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <24B6C440-7096-4B06-9639-DC0A1938DE7B@ifi.uio.no> <5055D5B7.4000700@web.de> Message-ID: <50564458.8070309@swin.edu.au> On 09/17/2012 02:43, Jon Crowcroft wrote: [..] > imagine if we had middle boxes that remobed bugs from programmes and > fixed grammar and spelling in our tweets, removed inappropriate > irony, sarcasm and sardonicism, and intervened in global > misunderstandings Every time one gets deployed, it quickly converges on behaviour indistinguishable from that of an unplugged cable. It is promptly replaced. cheers, gja From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 22:06:49 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:06:49 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: <5055EA0B.2060109@web.de> References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> <5055D41C.2090207@web.de> <5055EA0B.2060109@web.de> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > > My solution is a good one. >> > > A solution requires a problem. > > I told the problem 3-4 times. > And you did not point out a problem. For reasons, which are beyond the > scope this list, I personally feel deeply offended by trolls like you. > Presumably you do not even notice the damage you cause. > > I shouldn't respond normally but it may be stupid to not defend myself. So I don't know the right response. You are just a spoiled child. Who is the troll? LOOK AT YOUR LANGUAGE! > Detlef > > > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120917/9454accb/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Sun Sep 16 22:10:44 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 08:10:44 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> <5055D41C.2090207@web.de> <5055EA0B.2060109@web.de> Message-ID: No more comment requested (please don't attach my address) I leave the list. On Mon, Sep 17, 2012 at 8:06 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > On Sun, Sep 16, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > >> >> My solution is a good one. >>> >> >> A solution requires a problem. >> >> > I told the problem 3-4 times. > > >> And you did not point out a problem. For reasons, which are beyond the >> scope this list, I personally feel deeply offended by trolls like you. >> Presumably you do not even notice the damage you cause. >> >> > I shouldn't respond normally but it may be stupid to not defend myself. So > I don't know the right response. You are just a spoiled child. > > Who is the troll? LOOK AT YOUR LANGUAGE! > > > >> Detlef >> >> >> -- >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ >> Detlef Bosau >> Galileistra?e 30 >> 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 >> mobile: +49 172 6819937 >> skype: detlef.bosau >> ICQ: 566129673 >> detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ >> >> > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120917/8d19cc54/attachment-0001.html From detlef.bosau at web.de Mon Sep 17 03:35:56 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:35:56 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: <1347765613.65191.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <38DD2F3B-7E40-44CE-BE0B-CC57A34955E4@ifi.uio.no> <5055D41C.2090207@web.de> <5055EA0B.2060109@web.de> Message-ID: <5056FD0C.3010506@web.de> On 09/17/2012 07:06 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > > I told the problem 3-4 times. I'm not convinced that I were the only one not to see the problem. > > I shouldn't respond normally but it may be stupid to not defend > myself. So I don't know the right response. You are just a spoiled child. > > Who is the troll? LOOK AT YOUR LANGUAGE! > No one did attack you. And what language is concerned, you might reconsider your most recent words. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From touch at isi.edu Mon Sep 17 15:09:43 2012 From: touch at isi.edu (Joe Touch) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 15:09:43 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Regarding personal attacks in posts Message-ID: <50579FA7.5010000@isi.edu> As a reminder to all on this list: Messages such as those noted below are not appropriate, as they are attacks on the person (ad hominem) rather than their ideas. Please review the list posting policies if you have any questions regarding this policy. Repeated violations may result in a suspension of list posting privileges. Joe (as list admin) On 9/16/2012 7:18 AM, Randy Bush wrote: > +----------+ > | PLEASE | > | DO NOT | > | FEED THE | > | TROLL | > +----------+ On 9/16/2012 8:02 AM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > And you did not point out a problem. For reasons, which are beyond > the scope this list, I personally feel deeply offended by trolls like > you. From ingemar.s.johansson at ericsson.com Mon Sep 17 23:38:03 2012 From: ingemar.s.johansson at ericsson.com (Ingemar Johansson S) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 08:38:03 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I believe that it is now high time to put an end to this discussion or ? Pars: If you really believe in your idea (I don't have any opinion about the idea as such), then you should probably bring it the IETF, not sure which WG or AREA is the best. Mind though that you should expect to get some resistance similar to the comments that you've got on this mailing list. As regards to "IETF does not give freedom of choice": It has been explained earlier in this thread but IETF does not really dictate how the internet is run, rather it is a collective "hum" around technologies that makes the internet work with as little pain as possible, but IETF do not have the horse powers to control that every individual or company implements the RFCs correctlty. Also... The IETF is no more than a bunch of people of flesh and blood. To a great extent it resembles a modern democrazy with all its benefits and drawbacks. Winston Churchill once said "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.". I believe that the same pretty applies to the IETF. This is my first and last addition to this thread Regards /Ingemar ================================= Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. Senior Researcher Ericsson AB Wireless Access Networks Labratoriegr?nd 11 971 28, Lule?, Sweden Phone +46-1071 43042 SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 ingemar.s.johansson at ericsson.com www.ericsson.com www.thenodepole.com/ ================================= > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 12:35:56 +0200 > From: Detlef Bosau > Subject: Re: [e2e] Discrete IP > Cc: end2end-interest at postel.org > Message-ID: <5056FD0C.3010506 at web.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On 09/17/2012 07:06 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > > > > > > > I told the problem 3-4 times. > > I'm not convinced that I were the only one not to see the problem. > > > > I shouldn't respond normally but it may be stupid to not defend > > myself. So I don't know the right response. You are just a > spoiled child. > > > > Who is the troll? LOOK AT YOUR LANGUAGE! > > > > No one did attack you. And what language is concerned, you > might reconsider your most recent words. > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 02:25:55 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:25:55 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake Message-ID: Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken seriously because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have in fact a PhD in computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in Turkey. But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your imagination ;-). Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic): http://www.content-based-science.org/ What is important is the content. Not the name. Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking: ----- Dear colleagues, I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It would be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles therefore it is economically more viable. ***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the end of centuries of research.*** -I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does. -People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is not normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not have to. -To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for example TCP. -This is the end-to-end principle. Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running random IP versions): http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg The question is: ***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question without entering in design challenges.*** For more information, see my unpublished paper: http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP Cheers, Pars -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/f159c066/attachment.html From lars at netapp.com Tue Sep 18 03:10:53 2012 From: lars at netapp.com (Eggert, Lars) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:10:53 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 18, 2012, at 11:25, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken > seriously because I am too modest. Let me assure you on-list that this is not the reason I did not take your proposal seriously. I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were given) and significantly flesh out your proposal, esp. in regards to why it does not suffer from the various drawbacks of those earlier approaches. When you have a more comprehensive write-up that addresses these points and also describes your proposal at a technical level, please send a pointer. Lars -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/11012eda/smime.bin From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 03:16:55 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:16:55 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:10 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > On Sep 18, 2012, at 11:25, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken > > seriously because I am too modest. > > Let me assure you on-list that this is not the reason I did not take your > proposal seriously. > > I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were given) Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. > and significantly flesh out your proposal, esp. in regards to why it does > not suffer from the various drawbacks of those earlier approaches. When you > have a more comprehensive write-up that addresses these points and also > describes your proposal at a technical level, please send a pointer. > What you don't seem to understand is that the research method currently used on this planet is a wrong one. We should first discuss the idea, then discuss the technical details. It is too early, to attack the technical details. First: Understand what you want. This planet never does that. > > Lars -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/cf2d6a00/attachment-0001.html From lars at netapp.com Tue Sep 18 03:22:42 2012 From: lars at netapp.com (Eggert, Lars) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 10:22:42 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 18, 2012, at 12:16, Pars Mutaf wrote: > What you don't seem to understand is that the research method currently > used on this planet is a wrong one. > > We should first discuss the idea, then discuss the technical details. I refuse to discuss ideas that are articulated so vaguely that they cannot be understood. You refuse to expand on them in your memo. I guess we won't be having a discussion. I can live with that. Lars -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7s Type: application/pkcs7-signature Size: 4361 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/180fe57b/smime.bin From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 03:26:45 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:26:45 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I refuse to enter technical discussion, e.g. feasible or not, before understanding ***what we want.**** If no one agrees with this research method, I won't have any feedback. That's OK. I am not surprised by your reaction because, currently we publish the feasibility of ideas, not the ideas themselves. This doesn't mean that Discrete IP is not feasible. This means that I am honest beyond your comprehension. On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:22 PM, Eggert, Lars wrote: > On Sep 18, 2012, at 12:16, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > What you don't seem to understand is that the research method currently > > used on this planet is a wrong one. > > > > We should first discuss the idea, then discuss the technical details. > > I refuse to discuss ideas that are articulated so vaguely that they cannot > be understood. You refuse to expand on them in your memo. I guess we won't > be having a discussion. I can live with that. > > Lars -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/32dec1a5/attachment.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Tue Sep 18 03:30:41 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:30:41 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network architectures nearly 10 years ago http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish - actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and another already you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation of headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might ential the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make use of name spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3 http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not just using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research programmes have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business of deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc) communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM Sigcomm and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others... ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have entire DAGs coded in packets (efficiently) there's so much exciting new stuff out there.... on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different stuff exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, but in the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project folks' paper on How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath TCP at https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks had to empoy to get small changes into TCP: Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery Wire-Compatible with TCP and TLS In missive , Par s Mutaf typed: >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken >>seriously >>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have in fact >>a PhD in >>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in Turkey. >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your >>imagination ;-). >>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic): >> >>http://www.content-based-science.org/ >> >>What is important is the content. Not the name. >> >>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read >>the >>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking: >>----- >> >>Dear colleagues, >> >>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It would >>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. >>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles >>therefore it is economically more viable. >> >>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the end of >>centuries of research.*** >> >>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the >>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does. >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because >>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks >>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is not >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown >>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not >>have to. >>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for >>example TCP. >>-This is the end-to-end principle. >> >>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets running >>random IP versions): >>http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg >>The question is: >>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this question >>without entering in design challenges.*** >> >>For more information, see my unpublished paper: >> >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP >> >>Cheers, >>Pars >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken serio= >>usly
because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have = >>in fact a PhD in
computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst = >>prof. in Turkey.
>>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your imaginati= >>on ;-).
Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic= >>):

http://www.cont= >>ent-based-science.org/
>>
What is important is the content. Not the name.

Now back to our = >>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the
message ag= >>ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:
-----

Dear colleagu= >>es,
>>
I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. I= >>t would
be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.
I conclud= >>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles
therefore = >>it is economically more viable.
>>
***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the e= >>nd of
centuries of research.***

-I propose that we do not touch t= >>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the
modification of all Internet routers,= >> this is what IPv6 does.
>>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because
d= >>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF blocks<= >>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is n= >>ot
>>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for unknown<= >>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not<= >>br>have to.
-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-n= >>odes, for
>>example TCP.
-This is the end-to-end principle.

Here is a picture= >> (in this picture we have a network of Internets running
random IP versi= >>ons):
>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image= >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg
>>The question is:
***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please dis= >>cuss this question
without entering in design challenges.***

For = >>more information, see my unpublished paper:

>ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis= >>crete-IP
>>
Cheers,
Pars

--
>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.or= >>g

>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c-- cheers jon From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Tue Sep 18 03:35:21 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 11:35:21 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In missive , Par s Mutaf typed: >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were given) >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. it is exactly relevant. From touch at isi.edu Tue Sep 18 03:42:08 2012 From: touch at isi.edu (Joe Touch) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 03:42:08 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50585000.3000805@isi.edu> Hi, all, On 9/17/2012 11:38 PM, Ingemar Johansson S wrote: > Hi > > I believe that it is now high time to put an end to this discussion or ? > > Pars: If you really believe in your idea (I don't have any opinion > about the idea as such), then you should probably bring it the IETF, not > sure which WG or AREA is the best. Mind though that you should expect to > get some resistance similar to the comments that you've got on this > mailing list. FWIW, it was I who suggested he bring this to this list, rather than the IETF (where he initially posted this work). This list - originally part of the IRTF but now independent - has been a place where overall architectures have been discussed and proposed, and seems like a better place for that discussion to at least start. Joe (as list admin) From michawe at ifi.uio.no Tue Sep 18 04:25:46 2012 From: michawe at ifi.uio.no (Michael Welzl) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:25:46 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> On 18. sep. 2012, at 12:35, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > In missive , Par > s Mutaf typed: > >>>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were given) >>> Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. > > it is exactly relevant. Oh yes, it is, and I will add that one more pointer was given, by me, to John Day's book, and this is also absolutely relevant. You can take a look at http://rina.tssg.org/ for John Day's material if you want a shorter overview. Cheers, Michael From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 05:10:39 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:10:39 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jon, I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real meaning of your message: You are basically telling to me to go to a conference or journal. :-) No problem but we cannot discuss it here publicly? I am not interested in author-based research. All these people do research but they never discuss publicly. http://www.content-based-science.org/ The first question that we need to answer is what we want, before proposing solutions. I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what they wish. All these folks should be able to implement what they wish and be reachable to others. All of them are correct. Thanks On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network > architectures nearly 10 years ago > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf > > no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP > and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish - > actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and another > already > > you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation of > headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might ential > the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make use of name > spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3 > http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf > http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf > > > many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not just > using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques > > there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research > programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical > problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example > http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ > > e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research programmes > have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business of > deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a > bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or > massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc) > > communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM Sigcomm > and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others... > > ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report > > http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf > amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have entire > DAGs coded in packets (efficiently) > > there's so much exciting new stuff out there.... > > > on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different stuff > exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, but in > the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project > folks' paper on > How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath TCP > at > https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions > > and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks had > to empoy to get small changes into TCP: > Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery Wire-Compatible > with TCP and TLS > > In missive 8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A at mail.gmail.com>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken > >>seriously > >>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have in > fact > >>a PhD in > >>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in Turkey. > >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your > >>imagination ;-). > >>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic): > >> > >>http://www.content-based-science.org/ > >> > >>What is important is the content. Not the name. > >> > >>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read > >>the > >>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking: > >>----- > >> > >>Dear colleagues, > >> > >>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It > would > >>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. > >>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles > >>therefore it is economically more viable. > >> > >>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the > end of > >>centuries of research.*** > >> > >>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the > >>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does. > >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because > >>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF > blocks > >>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is > not > >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for > unknown > >>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not > >>have to. > >>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for > >>example TCP. > >>-This is the end-to-end principle. > >> > >>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets > running > >>random IP versions): > >> > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg > >>The question is: > >>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this > question > >>without entering in design challenges.*** > >> > >>For more information, see my unpublished paper: > >> > >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > >> > >>Cheers, > >>Pars > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken > serio= > >>usly
because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I > have = > >>in fact a PhD in
computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an > asst = > >>prof. in Turkey.
> >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your > imaginati= > >>on ;-).
Check and support my project (off-list please this is > off-topic= > >>):

> http://www.cont= > >>ent-based-science.org/
> >>
What is important is the content. Not the name.

Now back to > our = > >>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the >
message ag= > >>ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:
-----

Dear > colleagu= > >>es,
> >>
I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be > IPv6. I= > >>t would
be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.
I > conclud= > >>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end > principles
therefore = > >>it is economically more viable.
> >>
***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is > the e= > >>nd of
centuries of research.***

-I propose that we do not > touch t= > >>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the
modification of all Internet > routers,= > >> this is what IPv6 does.
> >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish > because
d= > >>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF > blocks<= > >>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This > is n= > >>ot
> >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for > unknown<= > >>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do > not<= > >>br>have to.
-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the > end-n= > >>odes, for
> >>example TCP.
-This is the end-to-end principle.

Here is a > picture= > >> (in this picture we have a network of Internets running
random IP > versi= > >>ons):
http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image= > >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg"> > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image= > >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg
> >>The question is:
***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please > dis= > >>cuss this question
without entering in design > challenges.***

For = > >>more information, see my unpublished paper:

http://www.sc= > >>ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP"> > http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis= > >>crete-IP
> >>
Cheers,
Pars

--
http://www.conte= > >>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-science.or= > >>g

> >> > >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/dbdb4e8e/attachment.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Tue Sep 18 05:25:15 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 13:25:15 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not saying you need to go to a conference or journal, except from the point of view of finding out what else is going on (which is a lot) note a lot of the papers these people write are not just "academic" - the pointers I have are to groups who work with industry - for example, with ISPs, router vendors, cloud service providers, and the papers I prefer to mention are not just "paper" studies or simulations, but involve real code (just like the IETF, and just like vendors) the trilogy project is probabl a good example of how to work with a bunch of different types of groups, and has delivered work into the IETF which could see real deployment (first off in mobile devices and data centers, then more widely spread) - its also a great example of how much "heavy lifting" you have to do to get from a Great Idea, to getting a lot of people on your side and trying things out, and doing all the implementation, testing, deployment, debugging, re-deployment etc etc IPv6 is/was, in my view, another example of such a massive effort and although it is flawed (it was the result of a compromise between two better proposals which were each potentially much easier to deploy, but polarised people, and the solution was one of (in my opinion) the great failings of the IETF when it agreed to combine them (a committee type decision) rather than just do both and see which got out most. (the two, if you want ancient history, were Steve's IP and Paul's IP (actually, those aren't their real names, but that's who they came from) - the simple internet protocol had 64 bit addresses and everything else prety miuch the same - PIP had FTIFs which afforded ultrafast switching and really scalable source routing... oh well....luckly we didn't pick CLNP+NSAP (which nearly happened) In missive , Par s Mutaf typed: >>Hi Jon, >> >>I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real meaning of your >>message: >> >>You are basically telling to me to go to a conference or journal. :-) >> >>No problem but we cannot discuss it here publicly? I am not interested in >>author-based research. All these people do research but they never discuss >>publicly. >>http://www.content-based-science.org/ >> >>The first question that we need to answer is what we want, before proposing >>solutions. >>I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what >>they wish. >>All these folks should be able to implement what they wish and be reachable >>to others. >> >>All of them are correct. >> >>Thanks >> >>On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Crowcroft >>wrote: >> >>> as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network >>> architectures nearly 10 years ago >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf >>> >>> no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP >>> and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish - >>> actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and another >>> already >>> >>> you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation of >>> headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might ential >>> the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make use of name >>> spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3 >>> http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf >>> http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf >>> >>> >>> many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not just >>> using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques >>> >>> there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research >>> programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical >>> problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example >>> http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ >>> >>> e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research programmes >>> have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business of >>> deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a >>> bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or >>> massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc) >>> >>> communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM Sigcomm >>> and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others... >>> >>> ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report >>> >>> http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf >>> amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have entire >>> DAGs coded in packets (efficiently) >>> >>> there's so much exciting new stuff out there.... >>> >>> >>> on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different stuff >>> exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, but in >>> the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project >>> folks' paper on >>> How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath TCP >>> at >>> https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions >>> >>> and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks had >>> to empoy to get small changes into TCP: >>> Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery Wire-Compatible >>> with TCP and TLS >>> >>> In missive >> 8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A at mail.gmail.com>, Par >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >> >>> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken >>> >>seriously >>> >>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have in >>> fact >>> >>a PhD in >>> >>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in Turkey. >>> >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your >>> >>imagination ;-). >>> >>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic): >>> >> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org/ >>> >> >>> >>What is important is the content. Not the name. >>> >> >>> >>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read >>> >>the >>> >>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking: >>> >>----- >>> >> >>> >>Dear colleagues, >>> >> >>> >>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. It >>> would >>> >>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. >>> >>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles >>> >>therefore it is economically more viable. >>> >> >>> >>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is the >>> end of >>> >>centuries of research.*** >>> >> >>> >>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the >>> >>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does. >>> >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish because >>> >>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF >>> blocks >>> >>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This is >>> not >>> >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for >>> unknown >>> >>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do not >>> >>have to. >>> >>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, for >>> >>example TCP. >>> >>-This is the end-to-end principle. >>> >> >>> >>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets >>> running >>> >>random IP versions): >>> >> >>> http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg >>> >>The question is: >>> >>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this >>> question >>> >>without entering in design challenges.*** >>> >> >>> >>For more information, see my unpublished paper: >>> >> >>> >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP >>> >> >>> >>Cheers, >>> >>Pars >>> >> >>> >>-- >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >> >>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >> >>> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not taken >>> serio= >>> >>usly
because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I >>> have = >>> >>in fact a PhD in
computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an >>> asst = >>> >>prof. in Turkey.
>>> >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your >>> imaginati= >>> >>on ;-).
Check and support my project (off-list please this is >>> off-topic= >>> >>):

>>> http://www.cont= >>> >>ent-based-science.org/
>>> >>
What is important is the content. Not the name.

Now back to >>> our = >>> >>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the >>>
message ag= >>> >>ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:
-----

Dear >>> colleagu= >>> >>es,
>>> >>
I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be >>> IPv6. I= >>> >>t would
be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.
I >>> conclud= >>> >>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end >>> principles
therefore = >>> >>it is economically more viable.
>>> >>
***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is >>> the e= >>> >>nd of
centuries of research.***

-I propose that we do not >>> touch t= >>> >>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the
modification of all Internet >>> routers,= >>> >> this is what IPv6 does.
>>> >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish >>> because
d= >>> >>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF >>> blocks<= >>> >>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. This >>> is n= >>> >>ot
>>> >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for >>> unknown<= >>> >>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We do >>> not<= >>> >>br>have to.
-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the >>> end-n= >>> >>odes, for
>>> >>example TCP.
-This is the end-to-end principle.

Here is a >>> picture= >>> >> (in this picture we have a network of Internets running
random IP >>> versi= >>> >>ons):
>> http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image= >>> >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg"> >>> http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image= >>> >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg
>>> >>The question is:
***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please >>> dis= >>> >>cuss this question
without entering in design >>> challenges.***

For = >>> >>more information, see my unpublished paper:

>> http://www.sc= >>> >>ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP"> >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis= >>> >>crete-IP
>>> >>
Cheers,
Pars

--
>> http://www.conte= >>> >>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-science.or= >>> >>g

>>> >> >>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c-- >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--047d7bae44c8472c4304c9f8c72f >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>Hi Jon,

I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real meaning= >> of your message:

You are basically telling to me to go to a confer= >>ence or journal. :-)

No problem but we cannot discuss it here public= >>ly? I am not interested in
>>author-based research. All these people do research but they never discuss = >>publicly.
http://www.= >>content-based-science.org/

The first question that we need to an= >>swer is what we want, before proposing solutions.
>>I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what the= >>y wish.
All these folks should be able to implement what they wish and = >>be reachable to others.

All of them are correct.

Thanks
>>
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Crowcro= >>ft <>et=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so= >>lid;padding-left:1ex"> >>as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network
>>architectures nearly 10 years ago
>>>"_blank">http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf
>>
>>no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP
>>and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish -
>>actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and ano= >>ther
>>already
>>
>>you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation of>r> >>headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might ential= >>
>>the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make =A0use of name
>>spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3
>>>"_blank">http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf
>>>lank">http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf
>>
>>
>>many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not just>> >>using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques
>>
>>there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research
>>programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical
>>problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example
>>http://ilnp.= >>cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/
>>
>>e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research programmes<= >>br> >>have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business of>> >>deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a
>>bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or
>>massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc)
>>
>>communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM Sigcomm>> >>and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others...
>>
>>ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report
>>>port%203-1.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/Ma= >>y%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf
>>amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have entire>> >>DAGs coded in packets (efficiently)
>>
>>there's so much exciting new stuff out there....
>>
>>
>>on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different stuff<= >>br> >>exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, but in= >>
>>the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project
>>folks' paper on
>>How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath TCP>r> >>at
>>>-sessions" target=3D"_blank">https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-= >>schedule/technical-sessions
>>
>>and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks had<= >>br> >>to empoy to get small changes into TCP:
>>Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery Wire-Compatible= >>
>>with TCP and TLS
>>
>>In missive <CACQuieYAU+O1bXYdM+ZJsknXE=3D>Mshxu2Dtc6A at mail.gmail.com">8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A at mail.gmail.com>= >>, Par
>>s Mutaf typed:
>>
>>=A0>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>
=A0>>
>>=A0>>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not = >>taken
>>=A0>>seriously
>>=A0>>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I ha= >>ve in fact
>>=A0>>a PhD in
>>=A0>>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in T= >>urkey.
>>=A0>>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond you= >>r
>>=A0>>imagination ;-).
>>=A0>>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic)= >>:
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>>nk">http://www.content-based-science.org/
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>What is important is the content. Not the name.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. = >>Now read
>>=A0>>the
>>=A0>>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking:
>>=A0>>-----
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>Dear colleagues,
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be = >>IPv6. It would
>>=A0>>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.
>>=A0>>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end prin= >>ciples
>>=A0>>therefore it is economically more viable.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 i= >>s the end of
>>=A0>>centuries of research.***
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce = >>the
>>=A0>>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does.>> >>=A0>>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish b= >>ecause
>>=A0>>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, = >>IETF blocks
>>=A0>>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. T= >>his is not
>>=A0>>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 f= >>or unknown
>>=A0>>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We= >> do not
>>=A0>>have to.
>>=A0>>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes= >>, for
>>=A0>>example TCP.
>>=A0>>-This is the end-to-end principle.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internet= >>s running
>>=A0>>random IP versions):
>>=A0>>>ges/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg" target=3D"_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/37= >>98kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg
>>=A0>>The question is:
>>=A0>>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this= >> question
>>=A0>>without entering in design challenges.***
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>For more information, see my unpublished paper:
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>>et=3D"_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>Cheers,
>>=A0>>Pars
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--
>>=A0>>>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>
>>
=A0>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not = >>taken serio=3D
>>=A0>>usly<br>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and = >>hobbyist. I have =3D
>>=A0>>in fact a PhD in <br>computer science from INRIA, France. = >>I am now an asst =3D
>>=A0>>prof. in Turkey. <br>
>>=A0>>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond you= >>r imaginati=3D
>>=A0>>on ;-). <br>Check and support my project (off-list please = >>this is off-topic=3D
>>=A0>>):<br><br><a href=3D3D">.content-based-science.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-sci= >>ence.org/">http:/= >>/www.cont=3D
>> >>=A0>>ent-= >>based-science.org/</a><br>
>>=A0>><br>What is important is the content. Not the name.<br&= >>gt;<br>Now back to our =3D
>>=A0>>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the <= >>;br>message ag=3D
>>=A0>>ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:<br>-----<= >>br><br>Dear colleagu=3D
>>=A0>>es,<br>
>>=A0>><br>I believe that the next step in IP&#39;s evolution= >> would not be IPv6. I=3D
>>=A0>>t would<br>be &quot;Discrete IP&quot; allowing any= >> IP version.<br>I conclud=3D
>>=A0>>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end principles<= >>;br>therefore =3D
>>=A0>>it is economically more viable.<br>
>>=A0>><br>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume t= >>hat IPv6 is the e=3D
>>=A0>>nd of<br>centuries of research.***<br><br>-I p= >>ropose that we do not touch t=3D
>>=A0>>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the<br>modification of all = >>Internet routers,=3D
>>=A0>> this is what IPv6 does.<br>
>>=A0>>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish b= >>ecause<br>d=3D
>>=A0>>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, I= >>ETF blocks<=3D
>>=A0>>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of cho= >>ice. This is n=3D
>>=A0>>ot<br>
>>=A0>>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 f= >>or unknown<=3D
>>=A0>>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not kn= >>ow. We do not<=3D
>>=A0>>br>have to.<br>-To give such freedom of choice, we need= >> to change the end-n=3D
>>=A0>>odes, for<br>
>>=A0>>example TCP.<br>-This is the end-to-end principle.<br&g= >>t;<br>Here is a picture=3D
>>=A0>> (in this picture we have a network of Internets running<br&g= >>t;random IP versi=3D
>>=A0>>ons):<br><a href=3D3D">cribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://htmlimg= >>4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D
>>=A0>>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg">>ets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://htmlimg4.scribd= >>assets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D
>>=A0>>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg</a><br>
>>=A0>>The question is:<br>***Would this be the ideal for the Int= >>ernet? Please dis=3D
>>=A0>>cuss this question<br>without entering in design challenge= >>s.***<br><br>For =3D
>>=A0>>more information, see my unpublished paper:<br><br>&= >>lt;a href=3D3D"http://www.= >>sc=3D
>>=A0>>>_blank">ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP">>ww.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.scribd.com= >>/doc/105448105/Dis=3D
>> >>=A0>>crete-IP</a><br>
>>=A0>><br>Cheers,<br>Pars<br clear=3D3D"all"&= >>gt;<br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"> target=3D"_blank">http://www.conte=3D
>>=A0>>nt-bas= >>ed-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>/www.content-based-science.or" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s= >>cience.or=3D
>> >>=A0>>g</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c--
>>
>>=A0cheers
>>
>>=A0 =A0jon
>>
>>



--
>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>ent-based-science.org

>> >>--047d7bae44c8472c4304c9f8c72f-- cheers jon From detlef.bosau at web.de Tue Sep 18 05:30:36 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:30:36 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5058696C.3000708@web.de> On 09/18/2012 12:26 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > I refuse to enter technical discussion, e.g. feasible or not, before > understanding ***what we want.**** Obviously, this is exactly the problem. It is not yet clear what you want. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 06:55:08 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 16:55:08 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > I'm not saying you need to go to a conference or journal, except from the > point of view of finding out what else is going on (which is a lot) > > note a lot of the papers these people write are not just "academic" - the > pointers I have are to groups who work with industry - for example, with > ISPs, router vendors, cloud service providers, and the papers I prefer to > mention are not just "paper" studies or simulations, but involve real code > (just like the IETF, and just like vendors) > > the trilogy project is probabl a good example of how to work with a bunch > of different types of groups, and has delivered work into the IETF which > could see real deployment (first off in mobile devices and data centers, > then more widely spread) - its also a great example of how much "heavy > lifting" you have to do to get from a Great Idea, to getting a lot of > people on your side and trying things out, and doing all the > implementation, testing, deployment, debugging, re-deployment etc etc > > Yes. That's what I am doing in my way. I want to understand first what we want exactly. I don't want to find out this alone in my office. The work is more important than my name. Is there a real need for more IP space in the first place for example? NATs are working well. Why optimizing NAT traversal is not a better solution until someone gets a better idea 50 years later, etc. > IPv6 is/was, in my view, another example of such a massive effort and > although it is flawed (it was the result of a compromise between two better > proposals which were each potentially much easier to deploy, but polarised > people, and the solution was one of (in my opinion) the great failings of > the IETF when it agreed to combine them (a committee type decision) rather > than just do both and see which got out most. (the two, if you want ancient > history, were Steve's IP and Paul's IP (actually, those aren't their real > names, but that's who they came from) - the simple internet protocol had 64 > bit addresses and everything else prety miuch the same - PIP had FTIFs > which afforded ultrafast switching and really scalable source routing... > > oh well....luckly we didn't pick CLNP+NSAP (which nearly happened) > > Thanks, I wasn't there but I think they were just hyperactive. They did not even think about calming down and allowing others do to research on IP. (their goal is to use IPv6 on *everything*) > In missive < > CACQuieayXDJ2A+BPS009ZN04nz6iy7pYzPBmv+_wtjCqYzFnVA at mail.gmail.com>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>Hi Jon, > >> > >>I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real meaning of your > >>message: > >> > >>You are basically telling to me to go to a conference or journal. :-) > >> > >>No problem but we cannot discuss it here publicly? I am not interested > in > >>author-based research. All these people do research but they never > discuss > >>publicly. > >>http://www.content-based-science.org/ > >> > >>The first question that we need to answer is what we want, before > proposing > >>solutions. > >>I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what > >>they wish. > >>All these folks should be able to implement what they wish and be > reachable > >>to others. > >> > >>All of them are correct. > >> > >>Thanks > >> > >>On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network > >>> architectures nearly 10 years ago > >>> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf > >>> > >>> no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP > >>> and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish - > >>> actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and > another > >>> already > >>> > >>> you need to propose how you find the right place to do the > translation of > >>> headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might > ential > >>> the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make use of name > >>> spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3 > >>> http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf > >>> http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf > >>> > >>> > >>> many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not > just > >>> using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques > >>> > >>> there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research > >>> programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other practical > >>> problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example > >>> http://ilnp.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/ > >>> > >>> e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research > programmes > >>> have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business > of > >>> deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling a > >>> bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, or > >>> massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc) > >>> > >>> communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM > Sigcomm > >>> and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others... > >>> > >>> ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report > >>> > >>> > http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf > >>> amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have > entire > >>> DAGs coded in packets (efficiently) > >>> > >>> there's so much exciting new stuff out there.... > >>> > >>> > >>> on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different > stuff > >>> exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, > but in > >>> the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project > >>> folks' paper on > >>> How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath > TCP > >>> at > >>> > https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical-sessions > >>> > >>> and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale > folks had > >>> to empoy to get small changes into TCP: > >>> Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery > Wire-Compatible > >>> with TCP and TLS > >>> > >>> In missive >>> 8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A at mail.gmail.com>, Par > >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not > taken > >>> >>seriously > >>> >>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. I have > in > >>> fact > >>> >>a PhD in > >>> >>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. in > Turkey. > >>> >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your > >>> >>imagination ;-). > >>> >>Check and support my project (off-list please this is off-topic): > >>> >> > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org/ > >>> >> > >>> >>What is important is the content. Not the name. > >>> >> > >>> >>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. > Now read > >>> >>the > >>> >>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking: > >>> >>----- > >>> >> > >>> >>Dear colleagues, > >>> >> > >>> >>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be IPv6. > It > >>> would > >>> >>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version. > >>> >>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end > principles > >>> >>therefore it is economically more viable. > >>> >> > >>> >>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 is > the > >>> end of > >>> >>centuries of research.*** > >>> >> > >>> >>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. enforce the > >>> >>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 does. > >>> >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish > because > >>> >>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, > IETF > >>> blocks > >>> >>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. > This is > >>> not > >>> >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for > >>> unknown > >>> >>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. We > do not > >>> >>have to. > >>> >>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the end-nodes, > for > >>> >>example TCP. > >>> >>-This is the end-to-end principle. > >>> >> > >>> >>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of Internets > >>> running > >>> >>random IP versions): > >>> >> > >>> > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg > >>> >>The question is: > >>> >>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss this > >>> question > >>> >>without entering in design challenges.*** > >>> >> > >>> >>For more information, see my unpublished paper: > >>> >> > >>> >>http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP > >>> >> > >>> >>Cheers, > >>> >>Pars > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > >>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c > >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >> > >>> >>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was not > taken > >>> serio= > >>> >>usly
because I am too modest. I was called a troll and > hobbyist. I > >>> have = > >>> >>in fact a PhD in
computer science from INRIA, France. I am now > an > >>> asst = > >>> >>prof. in Turkey.
> >>> >>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond your > >>> imaginati= > >>> >>on ;-).
Check and support my project (off-list please this is > >>> off-topic= > >>> >>):

> >>> http://www.cont= > >>> >>ent-based-science.org/
> >>> >>
What is important is the content. Not the name.

Now > back to > >>> our = > >>> >>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the > >>>
message ag= > >>> >>ain, this is the result of 15 years thinking:
-----

Dear > >>> colleagu= > >>> >>es,
> >>> >>
I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not be > >>> IPv6. I= > >>> >>t would
be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.
I > >>> conclud= > >>> >>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end > >>> principles
therefore = > >>> >>it is economically more viable.
> >>> >>
***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that IPv6 > is > >>> the e= > >>> >>nd of
centuries of research.***

-I propose that we do not > >>> touch t= > >>> >>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the
modification of all Internet > >>> routers,= > >>> >> this is what IPv6 does.
> >>> >>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they wish > >>> because
d= > >>> >>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs IPv6, IETF > >>> blocks<= > >>> >>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of choice. > This > >>> is n= > >>> >>ot
> >>> >>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others IPv7 for > >>> unknown<= > >>> >>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not know. > We do > >>> not<= > >>> >>br>have to.
-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change > the > >>> end-n= > >>> >>odes, for
> >>> >>example TCP.
-This is the end-to-end principle.

Here is a > >>> picture= > >>> >> (in this picture we have a network of Internets running
random > IP > >>> versi= > >>> >>ons):
>>> http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image= > >>> >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg"> > >>> http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image= > >>> >>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg
> >>> >>The question is:
***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? > Please > >>> dis= > >>> >>cuss this question
without entering in design > >>> challenges.***

For = > >>> >>more information, see my unpublished paper:

>>> http://www.sc= > >>> >>ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP"> > >>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis= > >>> >>crete-IP
> >>> >>
Cheers,
Pars

--
>>> http://www.conte= > >>> >>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.content-based-science.or= > >>> >>g

> >>> >> > >>> >>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c-- > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--047d7bae44c8472c4304c9f8c72f > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>Hi Jon,

I at last solved the puzzle and understood the real > meaning= > >> of your message:

You are basically telling to me to go to a > confer= > >>ence or journal. :-)

No problem but we cannot discuss it here > public= > >>ly? I am not interested in
> >>author-based research. All these people do research but they never > discuss = > >>publicly.
> http://www.= > >>content-based-science.org/

The first question that we need > to an= > >>swer is what we want, before proposing solutions.
> >>I argue that we need a dirty and happy Internet where everybody do what > the= > >>y wish.
All these folks should be able to implement what they wish > and = > >>be reachable to others.

All of them are correct. >

Thanks
> >>
On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 1:30 PM, Jon > Crowcro= > >>ft < targ= > >>et=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > wrote:
>>te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > #ccc so= > >>lid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>as i said, read the paper we published in sigcomm future network
> >>architectures nearly 10 years ago
> >> target=3D= > >>"_blank">http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~andy/papers/plutarch-fdna.pdf
> >>
> >>no one in the IETF says you can't run multiple versions of IP
> >>and build interworking points that copy payloads , if you so wish -
> >>actually, there's a lot of this going on in middleboxes one way and > ano= > >>ther
> >>already
> >>
> >>you need to propose how you find the right place to do the translation > of >>r> > >>headers - this requires some sort of overlay control plane and might > ential= > >>
> >>the use of a new overlay meta-addressing system or make =A0use of > name
> >>spaces as in IPNL or related work on I^3
> >> target=3D= > >>"_blank">http://128.232.0.20/teaching/0910/R02/papers/ipnl.pdf
> >> target=3D"_b= > >>lank">http://www.cs.rice.edu/Conferences/IPTPS02/166.pdf
> >>
> >>
> >>many of the ways IPv4/IPv6 interworking have also tackled this, not > just >>> > >>using tunnels or tunnel brokers, but lots of other techniques
> >>
> >>there are LOTS and LOTS of papers in the future internet research
> >>programmes around the world on how to do this ad solve other > practical
> >>problems - see work in the IETF on ILNP for example
> >> > http://ilnp.= > >>cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/
> >>
> >>e2e is just one discussion place - the future internet research > programmes<= > >>br> > >>have moved a long way beyond the necessary and insufficienct business > of >>> > >>deploying IPv6 as fast and as widely as possible, and on to tackling > a
> >>bunch of new problems (Information centric networking, for example, > or
> >>massive scale internet of things and sensors etc etc)
> >>
> >>communities of interest for that include conferences such as ACM > Sigcomm >>> > >>and Usenix NSDI and IEEE Infocom and many others...
> >>
> >>ideas like XIA (see recent FIA report
> >> http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/May%202011%20meeting%20re= > >>port%203-1.pdf" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.nets-fia.net/Meetings/May11/Ma= > >>y%202011%20meeting%20report%203-1.pdf
> >>amongst oterhs) go way beyond identifiers for end points and have > entire >>> > >>DAGs coded in packets (efficiently)
> >>
> >>there's so much exciting new stuff out there....
> >>
> >>
> >>on the other hand, practical barriers to deploying lots of different > stuff<= > >>br> > >>exist, not just in the slowness/ossified internet core IPv4 routers, > but in= > >>
> >>the many weird boxes nearer the edges - see the Trilogy project
> >>folks' paper on
> >>How Hard Can It Be? Designing and Implementing a Deployable Multipath > TCP >>r> > >>at
> >> https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-schedule/technical= > >>-sessions" target=3D"_blank"> > https://www.usenix.org/conference/nsdi12/tech-= > >>schedule/technical-sessions
> >>
> >>and also in same conference session, the cunning tricks the Yale folks > had<= > >>br> > >>to empoy to get small changes into TCP:
> >>Fitting Square Pegs Through Round Pipes: Unordered Delivery > Wire-Compatible= > >>
> >>with TCP and TLS
> >>
> >>In missive <CACQuieYAU+O1bXYdM+ZJsknXE=3D 8wPgzftOxKJ73= > >>Mshxu2Dtc6A at mail.gmail.com">8wPgzftOxKJ73Mshxu2Dtc6A at mail.gmail.com > >= > >>, Par
> >>s Mutaf typed:
> >>
> >>=A0>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>
=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was > not = > >>taken
> >>=A0>>seriously
> >>=A0>>because I am too modest. I was called a troll and hobbyist. > I ha= > >>ve in fact
> >>=A0>>a PhD in
> >>=A0>>computer science from INRIA, France. I am now an asst prof. > in T= > >>urkey.
> >>=A0>>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond > you= > >>r
> >>=A0>>imagination ;-).
> >>=A0>>Check and support my project (off-list please this is > off-topic)= > >>:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_bla= > >>nk">http://www.content-based-science.org/
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>What is important is the content. Not the name.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Now back to our topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong > way. = > >>Now read
> >>=A0>>the
> >>=A0>>message again, this is the result of 15 years thinking:
> >>=A0>>-----
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Dear colleagues,
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>I believe that the next step in IP's evolution would not > be = > >>IPv6. It would
> >>=A0>>be "Discrete IP" allowing any IP version.
> >>=A0>>I concluded that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end > prin= > >>ciples
> >>=A0>>therefore it is economically more viable.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not assume that > IPv6 i= > >>s the end of
> >>=A0>>centuries of research.***
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>-I propose that we do not touch the core Internet, i.e. > enforce = > >>the
> >>=A0>>modification of all Internet routers, this is what IPv6 > does. >>> > >>=A0>>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they > wish b= > >>ecause
> >>=A0>>deciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs > IPv6, = > >>IETF blocks
> >>=A0>>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of > choice. T= > >>his is not
> >>=A0>>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others > IPv7 f= > >>or unknown
> >>=A0>>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do not > know. We= > >> do not
> >>=A0>>have to.
> >>=A0>>-To give such freedom of choice, we need to change the > end-nodes= > >>, for
> >>=A0>>example TCP.
> >>=A0>>-This is the end-to-end principle.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Here is a picture (in this picture we have a network of > Internet= > >>s running
> >>=A0>>random IP versions):
> >>=A0>> http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/ima= > >>ges/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg" target=3D"_blank"> > http://htmlimg4.scribdassets.com/37= > >>98kx3chs1szfhj/images/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg
> >>=A0>>The question is:
> >>=A0>>***Would this be the ideal for the Internet? Please discuss > this= > >> question
> >>=A0>>without entering in design challenges.***
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>For more information, see my unpublished paper:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>> targ= > >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Cheers,
> >>=A0>>Pars
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>
> >>
=A0>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Off-list messages that I received indicate to me that I was > not = > >>taken serio=3D
> >>=A0>>usly<br>because I am too modest. I was called a troll > and = > >>hobbyist. I have =3D
> >>=A0>>in fact a PhD in <br>computer science from INRIA, > France. = > >>I am now an asst =3D
> >>=A0>>prof. in Turkey. <br>
> >>=A0>>But I let go my PhD title because my thinking evolved beyond > you= > >>r imaginati=3D
> >>=A0>>on ;-). <br>Check and support my project (off-list > please = > >>this is off-topic=3D
> >>=A0>>):<br><br><a href=3D3D" http://www= > >>.content-based-science.org/" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-sci= > >>ence.org/"> target=3D"_blank">http:/= > >>/www.cont=3D
> >> > >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">ent-= > >>based-science.org/</a><br>
> >>=A0>><br>What is important is the content. Not the > name.<br&= > >>gt;<br>Now back to our =3D
> >>=A0>>topic. IPng was clearly designed the wrong way. Now read the > <= > >>;br>message ag=3D
> >>=A0>>ain, this is the result of 15 years > thinking:<br>-----<= > >>br><br>Dear colleagu=3D
> >>=A0>>es,<br>
> >>=A0>><br>I believe that the next step in IP&#39;s > evolution= > >> would not be IPv6. I=3D
> >>=A0>>t would<br>be &quot;Discrete IP&quot; allowing > any= > >> IP version.<br>I conclud=3D
> >>=A0>>ed that Discrete IP better respects the end-to-end > principles<= > >>;br>therefore =3D
> >>=A0>>it is economically more viable.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>***Do not touch the existing Internet, do not > assume t= > >>hat IPv6 is the e=3D
> >>=A0>>nd of<br>centuries of > research.***<br><br>-I p= > >>ropose that we do not touch t=3D
> >>=A0>>he core Internet, i.e. enforce the<br>modification of > all = > >>Internet routers,=3D
> >>=A0>> this is what IPv6 does.<br>
> >>=A0>>-People should be free to choose the IP version that they > wish b= > >>ecause<br>d=3D
> >>=A0>>eciding for others is a technology blocker. IETF designs > IPv6, I= > >>ETF blocks<=3D
> >>=A0>>br>its development. Because IETF does not give freedom of > cho= > >>ice. This is n=3D
> >>=A0>>ot<br>
> >>=A0>>normal. Some entities may use IPv6 others IPv4 yet others > IPv7 f= > >>or unknown<=3D
> >>=A0>>br>reasons. Everybody may agree on IPv6, or not. We do > not kn= > >>ow. We do not<=3D
> >>=A0>>br>have to.<br>-To give such freedom of choice, we > need= > >> to change the end-n=3D
> >>=A0>>odes, for<br>
> >>=A0>>example TCP.<br>-This is the end-to-end > principle.<br&g= > >>t;<br>Here is a picture=3D
> >>=A0>> (in this picture we have a network of Internets > running<br&g= > >>t;random IP versi=3D
> >>=A0>>ons):<br><a href=3D3D" http://htmlimg4.s= > >>cribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://htmlimg= > >>4.scribdassets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D
> >>=A0>>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg"> http://htmlimg4.scribdass= > >>ets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://htmlimg4.scribd= > >>assets.com/3798kx3chs1szfhj/image=3D
> >>=A0>>s/4-ce35c39dd1.jpg</a><br>
> >>=A0>>The question is:<br>***Would this be the ideal for the > Int= > >>ernet? Please dis=3D
> >>=A0>>cuss this question<br>without entering in design > challenge= > >>s.***<br><br>For =3D
> >>=A0>>more information, see my unpublished > paper:<br><br>&= > >>lt;a href=3D3D" > http://www.= > >>sc=3D
> >>=A0>> target=3D"= > >>_blank">ribd.com/doc/105448105/Discrete-IP"> http://w= > >>ww.scribd.com/doc/105448105/Dis=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.scribd.com= > >>/doc/105448105/Dis=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>crete-IP</a><br>
> >>=A0>><br>Cheers,<br>Pars<br > clear=3D3D"all"&= > >>gt;<br>-- <br><a href=3D3D" http://www.conte"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.conte=3D
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">nt-bas= > >>ed-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank"> href=3D"http:/= > >>/www.content-based-science.or" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-s= > >>cience.or=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>g</a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--047d7b4140c626654d04c9f67a1c--
> >>
> >>=A0cheers
> >>
> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>
> >>



--
href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.cont= > >>ent-based-science.org

> >> > >>--047d7bae44c8472c4304c9f8c72f-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/11c2e6ec/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 07:35:07 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:35:07 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <5058696C.3000708@web.de> References: <5058696C.3000708@web.de> Message-ID: Is what IETF wants clear? On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Detlef Bosau wrote: > On 09/18/2012 12:26 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > >> I refuse to enter technical discussion, e.g. feasible or not, before >> understanding ***what we want.**** >> > > Obviously, this is exactly the problem. > > It is not yet clear what you want. > > -- > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > Detlef Bosau > Galileistra?e 30 > 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 > mobile: +49 172 6819937 > skype: detlef.bosau > ICQ: 566129673 > detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de > ------------------------------**------------------------------**------ > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/a00bc32d/attachment.html From arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 07:50:29 2012 From: arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com (Arjuna Sathiaseelan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 15:50:29 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 Message-ID: Dear All, Hope this does not turn out into the Discrete IP battle thats going on here..But a quick question: I was wondering if its possible to create an IP address system (IPv6) that is free for accessing (like the free phone numbers). All essential services such as health, education, government services could be moved on to the free IP address space and they can be accessed for free. So anyone, anywhere via any device can access these essentials even when they dont have a subscribed (paid) Internet connection.. Thoughts anyone? Peace be with all :) --- Regards Arjuna http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan From dhavey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 18 09:01:13 2012 From: dhavey at yahoo.com (Daniel Havey) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:01:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1347984073.15076.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> It seems like IPv4 and 6 are all ready free. Nobody (that I know of) sells an IP address. It's just that access to the network requires physical equipment. Physical equipment costs money and has bandwidth limitations. Thus the ISPs charge money for access. Free Internet access via Google or whomever, is not actually free. It is just paid for by Google and offered at no charge. So I would say no probably not. ...Daniel --- On Tue, 9/18/12, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan > Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > To: end2end-interest at postel.org > Date: Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 7:50 AM > Dear All, > ? Hope this does not turn out into the Discrete IP > battle thats going > on here..But a quick question: > > I was wondering if its possible to create an IP address > system (IPv6) > that is free for accessing (like the free phone numbers). > All > essential services such as health, education, government > services > could be moved on to the free IP address space and they can > be > accessed for free. So anyone, anywhere via any device can > access these > essentials even when they dont have a subscribed (paid) > Internet > connection.. > > Thoughts anyone? Peace be with all :) > --- > Regards > Arjuna > http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan > From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Tue Sep 18 09:14:04 2012 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:14:04 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > In missive , Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were given) > >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. > > it is exactly relevant. in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope of being, constructive, it was not relevant... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Tue Sep 18 09:17:26 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 17:17:26 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: this is what we used to talk about as the "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, the poser (of the problem) changes the problem (or the assumptions) one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: >> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> In missive , Par >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were given) >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. >>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >> >> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope of >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >> >>d/ >> >>-- >> Dave Crocker >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> bbiw.net cheers jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 18 09:31:51 2012 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 12:31:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake Message-ID: <20120918163151.E9A3518C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Crowcroft > IPv6 is/was, in my view, another example of such a massive effort and > although it is flawed (it was the result of a compromise between two > better proposals which were each potentially much easier to deploy > ... > the solution was one of (in my opinion) the great failings of the IETF > when it agreed to combine them (a committee type decision) rather than > just do both and see which got out most. (the two, if you want ancient > history, were Steve's IP and Paul's IP .. the simple internet protocol > had 64 bit addresses and everything else prety miuch the same So I'm clearly missing something. How would SIP have been any easier-to/better-at actually being deployed than IPv6 (since as you yourself point out, it was basically smaller addresses and "everything else prety much the same")? Noel From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Tue Sep 18 09:43:35 2012 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:43:35 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <5058A4B7.3020707@dcrocker.net> On 9/18/2012 9:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > this is what we used to talk about as the > "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > > basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > the poser (of the problem) changes the > problem (or the assumptions) This is one of the reasons that I am a fan of starting any technical effort by agreeing on a simple, brief, entirely non-technical description of the problem to be solved and the benefit to be obtained. In the case of revision efforts, it's especially helpful in providing a basis for analyzing deficiencies of the existing work, as well as possible improvements of proposed work. It also forces a focus on community need in terms of user-level functionality that is not distracted by technical nits. Predictably, the specific example I happen to encounter most often is assertions that we need to replace SMTP with something that has better security (to stop spam, phishing, and other unpleasant content.) My suggestion is first to get the community to agree on a non-technical statement of the services that we need that we don't currently have. This is, and should be, quite difficult. Changing a complex human communication system is certain to have very serious and damaging unintended consequences. In any event, until that agreement is clear, worrying about the technical work is wasted effort. Once the agreement is in place, give the SMTP technical folk a chance to find a way to implement it. That's a realm of activity that has revised itself successfully for 30 years, so there's a good basis for thinking it might be able to incorporate the 'next' set of functional changes. At some point a revision effort will fail and indeed we'll have to replace SMTP, but until we go through the sequence, replacement is not appropriate. The switching costs for an infrastructure service are too massive. I of course intend this as an exemplar for all proposals of major change. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:48:35 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:48:35 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > this is what we used to talk about as the > "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > > basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > the poser (of the problem) changes the > problem (or the assumptions) > No I didn't change the problem: What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used for. They cannot explain. I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I am not sure if I should do this. Cheers, Pars > > one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) > is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves > in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose > (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > > In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: > > >> > >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> In missive < > CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par > >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers > were given) > >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. > >>> > >>> it is exactly relevant. > >> > >> > >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope of > >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >> > >>d/ > >> > >>-- > >> Dave Crocker > >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >> bbiw.net > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/3e20e7eb/attachment-0001.html From jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Tue Sep 18 10:09:24 2012 From: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 18:09:24 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <20120918163151.E9A3518C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20120918163151.E9A3518C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: No 8+8, loc/id split endless timesink debate would have happened with SIP as there weren't enough bits On 18 Sep 2012 17:31, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > From: Jon Crowcroft > > > IPv6 is/was, in my view, another example of such a massive effort and > > although it is flawed (it was the result of a compromise between two > > better proposals which were each potentially much easier to deploy > > ... > > the solution was one of (in my opinion) the great failings of the > IETF > > when it agreed to combine them (a committee type decision) rather > than > > just do both and see which got out most. (the two, if you want > ancient > > history, were Steve's IP and Paul's IP .. the simple internet > protocol > > had 64 bit addresses and everything else prety miuch the same > > So I'm clearly missing something. > > How would SIP have been any easier-to/better-at actually being deployed > than > IPv6 (since as you yourself point out, it was basically smaller addresses > and "everything else prety much the same")? > > Noel > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120918/57f70db3/attachment.html From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 18 11:16:54 2012 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 14:16:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake Message-ID: <20120918181654.B2BF118C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Crowcroft >> How would SIP have been any easier-to/better-at actually being >> deployed than IPv6 > No 8+8, loc/id split endless timesink debate would have happened with > SIP as there weren't enough bits That had no effect on the deployability, though. To the extent that discussion had any effect on IPv6 at all, it was purely on the schedule - and I'm not even convinced it had much effect on that. BTW, you probably recall this, but for those who weren't there, the switch from 8 byte address size to 16 bytes had nothing to do with location/identity separation, it was down to wanting to support Netware (I think it was - some XNS derivative, anyway) addresses in IPv6. (The change was made at a meeting in Chicago - if anyone care, I can probably dig up a reference.) 8+8 and all the other location/identity separation schemes came later, once people realized there were enough bits there. Noel From detlef.bosau at web.de Tue Sep 18 12:55:53 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:55:53 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <5058696C.3000708@web.de> Message-ID: <5058D1C9.4020803@web.de> On 09/18/2012 04:35 PM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Is what IETF wants clear? This is not the discussion. You request a discussion in this list. So, it is your task to point out the question you want to discuss. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------ Detlef Bosau Galileistra?e 30 70565 Stuttgart Tel.: +49 711 5208031 mobile: +49 172 6819937 skype: detlef.bosau ICQ: 566129673 detlef.bosau at web.de http://www.detlef-bosau.de ------------------------------------------------------------------ From detlef.bosau at web.de Tue Sep 18 14:21:24 2012 From: detlef.bosau at web.de (Detlef Bosau) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 21:21:24 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <5058E5D4.9060606@web.de> Pars Mutaf schrieb: > No I didn't change the problem: > > What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? > I don' t know your question. I asked for it. Could you please state your question in some few linkes? DB From arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 15:26:02 2012 From: arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com (Arjuna Sathiaseelan) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:26:02 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 Message-ID: > Message: 3 Dear Daniel, Thanks for your reply. Ofcourse you are right :)..Probably I should have framed my question better. Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government services run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, then the network operators can always allow access to these services. So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont think so. Now lets bring the economics back - there could be always be new business models for e.g. the govt paying for the bandwidth usage incurred to access its services to the operators. Btw - I am not even sure whether this is the right place to ask these questions :) -- but since there's so much of IPv6 going around in this mailing list - so thought..Apologies if I have.. Regards Arjuna > Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 09:01:13 -0700 (PDT) > From: Daniel Havey > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > To: end2end-interest at postel.org > Message-ID: > <1347984073.15076.YahooMailClassic at web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > It seems like IPv4 and 6 are all ready free. Nobody (that I know of) sells an IP address. It's just that access to the network requires physical equipment. Physical equipment costs money and has bandwidth limitations. Thus the ISPs charge money for access. > > Free Internet access via Google or whomever, is not actually free. It is just paid for by Google and offered at no charge. So I would say no probably not. > > ...Daniel > > --- On Tue, 9/18/12, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > >> From: Arjuna Sathiaseelan >> Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 >> To: end2end-interest at postel.org >> Date: Tuesday, September 18, 2012, 7:50 AM >> Dear All, >> ? Hope this does not turn out into the Discrete IP >> battle thats going >> on here..But a quick question: >> >> I was wondering if its possible to create an IP address >> system (IPv6) >> that is free for accessing (like the free phone numbers). >> All >> essential services such as health, education, government >> services >> could be moved on to the free IP address space and they can >> be >> accessed for free. So anyone, anywhere via any device can >> access these >> essentials even when they dont have a subscribed (paid) >> Internet >> connection.. >> >> Thoughts anyone? Peace be with all :) >> --- >> Regards >> Arjuna >> http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan >> > -- Regards Arjuna http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan From fred at cisco.com Tue Sep 18 16:25:46 2012 From: fred at cisco.com (Fred Baker (fred)) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 23:25:46 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 18, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if > we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government > services run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are > configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP > addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, > then the network operators can always allow access to these services. > So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont > think so. There's no technical challenge there. It's a business problem. Allocate some addresses from the existing pool and use them for a defined service such as you're describing. What happens next, of course, is that since bandwidth costs money and no money is being exchanged, one gets no bandwidth. You've had the experience in hotels, no doubt; they offer free wifi in every room, by which they mean they have installed wifi APs on a LAN and connected that to some service provider. It works just fine as long as you send no packets on it. If you decide to send packets, oh, well gee. 20% loss is not a problem, is it? It's better than losing ALL of the packets, and after all it's free... TANSTAAFL... From touch at isi.edu Tue Sep 18 22:26:09 2012 From: touch at isi.edu (Joe Touch) Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 22:26:09 -0700 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> References: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <50595771.8090809@isi.edu> On 9/18/2012 4:25 AM, Michael Welzl wrote: > > On 18. sep. 2012, at 12:35, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >> In missive , Par >> s Mutaf typed: >> >>>>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were given) >>>> Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. >> >> it is exactly relevant. > > Oh yes, it is, and I will add that one more pointer was given, by me, to John Day's book, and this is also absolutely relevant. See also www.isi.edu/rna Joe (speaking as a contributor, not as list admin) From christian.tschudin at unibas.ch Tue Sep 18 23:10:15 2012 From: christian.tschudin at unibas.ch (christian.tschudin@unibas.ch) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:10:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <50595771.8090809@isi.edu> References: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> <50595771.8090809@isi.edu> Message-ID: adding to that growing list, see also http://www.netarch2009.net/ with an interesting lineup of architecture researchers, for following up their contributions best ,christian --- Prof. Dr. Christian F. Tschudin Uni Basel | Head of Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 9/18/2012 4:25 AM, Michael Welzl wrote: >> >> On 18. sep. 2012, at 12:35, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >> >>> In missive >>> , Par >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>>>>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were >>>>>> given) >>>>> Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. >>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >> >> Oh yes, it is, and I will add that one more pointer was given, by me, to >> John Day's book, and this is also absolutely relevant. > > See also www.isi.edu/rna > > Joe (speaking as a contributor, not as list admin) > From arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 23:11:13 2012 From: arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com (Arjuna Sathiaseelan) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 07:11:13 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Fred, It will be interesting to see this tech report Jon and I wrote sometime ago: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-814.pdf > TANSTAAFL... I like this acronym :) Incidentally, there is support for some of these ideas atleast in the UK which has/is investing heavily in solving the issues related to digital divide & its implications on the Digital Economy.. just for info - the research councils UK (RCUK) has recently funded us to pursue some of the ideas related to Free Internet access via WiFi crowdsharing (which has a major network operator and local govt support)..So who knows there may be free lunch for all (atleast a starter :) ) -- Regards Arjuna http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 18 23:44:35 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:44:35 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> <50595771.8090809@isi.edu> Message-ID: Hello, Thank you all for all these information. I have unfortunately no more faith in this kind of research. This is my personal opinion of course. Cheers, Pars On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 9:10 AM, wrote: > adding to that growing list, see also > > http://www.netarch2009.net/ > > with an interesting lineup of architecture researchers, > for following up their contributions > > best ,christian > > --- > Prof. Dr. Christian F. Tschudin > Uni Basel | Head of Dept of Mathematics and Computer Science > > > > On Wed, 19 Sep 2012, Joe Touch wrote: > > >> >> On 9/18/2012 4:25 AM, Michael Welzl wrote: >> >>> >>> On 18. sep. 2012, at 12:35, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>> In missive >>> V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.**com>, >>>> Par >>>> s Mutaf typed: >>>> >>>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers were >>>>>>> given) >>>>>>> >>>>>> Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> it is exactly relevant. >>>> >>> >>> Oh yes, it is, and I will add that one more pointer was given, by me, to >>> John Day's book, and this is also absolutely relevant. >>> >> >> See also www.isi.edu/rna >> >> Joe (speaking as a contributor, not as list admin) >> >> -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/a8d9381b/attachment-0001.html From jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 00:17:05 2012 From: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:17:05 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet radio days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular networks...some actually in use ad deployed. The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection of one notion with one technology. On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft > wrote: > >> this is what we used to talk about as the >> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >> >> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >> the poser (of the problem) changes the >> problem (or the assumptions) >> > > No I didn't change the problem: > > What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? > > Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used for. > They cannot explain. > > I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I am > not sure if I should do this. > > Cheers, > Pars > > >> >> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >> >> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: >> >> >> >> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >> >>> In missive < >> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par >> >>> s Mutaf typed: >> >>> >> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many pointers >> were given) >> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. >> >>> >> >>> it is exactly relevant. >> >> >> >> >> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope >> of >> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >> >> >> >>d/ >> >> >> >>-- >> >> Dave Crocker >> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> >> bbiw.net >> >> cheers >> >> jon >> >> > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/74414ff4/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 00:39:25 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:39:25 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: You do not question enough Jon. See: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet radio > days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular > networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > > The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for anything > we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > intersection of one notion with one technology. > On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: > >> >> >> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>> >>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>> problem (or the assumptions) >>> >> >> No I didn't change the problem: >> >> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? >> >> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used for. >> They cannot explain. >> >> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I am >> not sure if I should do this. >> >> Cheers, >> Pars >> >> >>> >>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>> >>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: >>> >>> >> >>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>> In missive < >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par >>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many >>> pointers were given) >>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. >>> >>> >>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope >>> of >>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>> >> >>> >>d/ >>> >> >>> >>-- >>> >> Dave Crocker >>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> >> bbiw.net >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> http://www.content-based-science.org >> >> -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/b05d9236/attachment.html From neil.davies at pnsol.com Wed Sep 19 00:48:41 2012 From: neil.davies at pnsol.com (Neil Davies) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:48:41 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Arjuna Interesting read. As someone who has trailed several of those approaches in real life (sharing with ad-hoc wireless, access to "scavenger" traffic etc) and runs a not-for-profit local community internet where I live - I applaud the sentiment. However, and there is always a gotcha, they don't really work or scale - mainly because of the human element, and the nature of opportunity cost?. I won't bore the rest of the list, but get in touch directly if you want to discuss more. Cheers Neil On 19 Sep 2012, at 07:11, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > Dear Fred, > > It will be interesting to see this tech report Jon and I wrote > sometime ago: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-814.pdf > > >> TANSTAAFL... > I like this acronym :) > Incidentally, there is support for some of these ideas atleast in the > UK which has/is investing heavily in solving the issues related to > digital divide & its implications on the Digital Economy.. > > just for info - the research councils UK (RCUK) has recently funded > us to pursue some of the ideas related > to Free Internet access via WiFi crowdsharing (which has a major > network operator and local govt support)..So who knows there may be > free lunch for all (atleast a starter :) ) > > > -- > Regards > Arjuna > http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan From jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 01:20:02 2012 From: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:20:02 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So here's an idea - (pace, Bob Briscoe and Google Adwords) Decongestant Adverts (DA - Like Congestion Exposure, only backwards - employing Yet Another Level of Redirection called Re-Re-ECN... bandwidth doesn't have much operational cost - te real cosrt is the shadow price of other people's traffic you displace - if there isn't other traffic, then the additional cost of carrying yours is little. So we can have a receiver pays model for capacity - and the way they pay is via third party ads.. now this works very nicely if we observe that congesiton exposire requires you to transparently reveal where the congestion is - i.e. the source of ECN marks... so the source can also reflect the receiver to a wiling advertiser site, who then sends adverts with ECN-willing-to-pay marks ... sine the adverts flow the opposite direction from the traffic they don't add to congestion - indeed on many links (e.g. Adsl) there's plenty of capacity that way anyway that way, the net is free at the network layer, not just uo in the clouds what say? I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads j. On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > > On Sep 18, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > > > Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if > > we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government > > services run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are > > configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP > > addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, > > then the network operators can always allow access to these services. > > So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont > > think so. > > There's no technical challenge there. It's a business problem. Allocate > some addresses from the existing pool and use them for a defined service > such as you're describing. > > What happens next, of course, is that since bandwidth costs money and no > money is being exchanged, one gets no bandwidth. You've had the experience > in hotels, no doubt; they offer free wifi in every room, by which they mean > they have installed wifi APs on a LAN and connected that to some service > provider. It works just fine as long as you send no packets on it. If you > decide to send packets, oh, well gee. 20% loss is not a problem, is it? > It's better than losing ALL of the packets, and after all it's free... > > TANSTAAFL... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/75a4765e/attachment-0001.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 01:34:29 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:34:29 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to hand they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed what many DO have is phones and laptops. manets can be usefully built out of these. in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great target for the other side in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. your move, sunshine. In missive , Pars Mutaf typed: >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >> >> >> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>wrote: >> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet radio >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for anything >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, not the >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>>>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >>>>> >>>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >>>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? >>>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used for. >>>> They cannot explain. >>>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I am >>>> not sure if I should do this. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Pars >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>>>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: >>>>> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>>>> >>> In missive < >>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many >>>>> pointers were given) >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant. >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope >>>>> of >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>>>> >> >>>>> >>d/ >>>>> >> >>>>> >>-- >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>>>> >> bbiw.net >>>>> >>>>> cheers >>>>> >>>>> jon >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>>> >>>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>quote"> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet rad= >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular networ= >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

>>

The internet isn't for just one >=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can imagine and= >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection of o= >>ne notion with one technology.

>> >> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <= >>;pars.mutaf at gmail= >>.com> wrote:
>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro= >>wcroft <>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >> >> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
>>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>
>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>problem (or the assumptions)

No I didn't chang= >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask t= >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wh= >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
>> >> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet"= >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers,
Pars
=A0<= >>br>
>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >> >> >> >>
>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>
>>In missive <>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>

>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>=A0>>> In missive <>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior= >> work (many pointers were given)
>>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it= >> is not relevant.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any= >> hope of
>>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>d/
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--
>>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>=A0>> =A0bbiw.net>r> >>
>>
=A0cheers
>>
>>=A0 =A0jon
>>
>>


>b">
--
>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
<= >>br> >>
>>


--
>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc= >>e.org

>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- cheers jon From laurent at comp.lancs.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 02:16:50 2012 From: laurent at comp.lancs.ac.uk (Laurent Mathy) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:16:50 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> <50595771.8090809@isi.edu> Message-ID: <50598D82.40101@comp.lancs.ac.uk> > Thank you all for all these information. I have unfortunately no more > faith in this kind of research. This is my personal opinion of course. What you have faith in is not the issue. However, systematically shooting down people who have invested some of their precious time entertaining the discussion you started, and telling them that their methods are no good and work irrelevant is at best not conducive to constructive interactions and at worst down right awful etiquette. My guess is that it is now time you ask yourself whether you really want to have discussion or just keep talking out people... Regards, Laurent From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 02:31:05 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:31:05 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in > great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to > hand > > they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, > california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed > > Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. Organizations like red cross will prepare them. > what many DO have is phones and laptops. > > manets can be usefully built out of these. > > MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario because they are too far away from the rest of the network. So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. > in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great > target for the other side > I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. > > in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big > drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. > > Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the infrastructure network. > your move, sunshine. > > In missive com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > > >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>You do not question enough Jon. See: > >> > >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html > >> > >> > >> > >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet > radio > >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular > >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > >>> > >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for > anything > >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, > not the > >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. > >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the > >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > >>>>> > >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the > >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> No I didn't change the problem: > >>>> > >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? > >>>> > >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used > for. > >>>> They cannot explain. > >>>> > >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I > am > >>>> not sure if I should do this. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers, > >>>> Pars > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) > >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves > >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose > >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > >>>>> > >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: > >>>>> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>>>> >>> In missive < > >>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > Par > >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many > >>>>> pointers were given) > >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not > relevant. > >>>>> >>> > >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any > hope > >>>>> of > >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>d/ > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >>-- > >>>>> >> Dave Crocker > >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >>>>> >> bbiw.net > >>>>> > >>>>> cheers > >>>>> > >>>>> jon > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

http://www.ietf.org/= > >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= > >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



class=3D"gmail_= > >>quote"> > >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft dir=3D"ltr">< >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= > >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
style= > >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet > rad= > >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular > networ= > >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

> >>

The internet isn't for just one target= > >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can > imagine and= > >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection > of o= > >>ne notion with one technology.

> >> > >> > >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" > <= > >>; target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= > >>.com> wrote:
class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon > Cro= > >>wcroft < Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = > >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > wrote:
>>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > #cc= > >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >> > >>this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>
> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I didn't > chang= > >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we really > ask t= > >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask > themselves wh= > >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
> >> > >> > >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > Internet"= > >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, >
Pars
=A0<= > >>br>
0.8e= > >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >> > >> > >>
> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>
> >>In missive < target=3D"_= > >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
> >>

> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>=A0>>> In missive < CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= > >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= > >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > Par
> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant > prior= > >> work (many pointers were given)
> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon > Crowcroft), it= > >> is not relevant.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has > any= > >> hope of
> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>d/
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--
> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>=A0>> =A0bbiw.net > >>r> > >>
> >>
=A0cheers
> >>
> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>
> >>


class=3D"HOEnZ= > >>b">
--
http://www.content-based-s= > >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >
<= > >>br> > >>
> >>


--
http://www.c= > >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-scienc= > >>e.org

> >> > >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/ebb0c7e1/attachment-0001.html From jeroen at unfix.org Wed Sep 19 02:34:06 2012 From: jeroen at unfix.org (Jeroen Massar) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:34:06 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5059918E.2050204@unfix.org> On 2012-09-19 10:20 , Jon Crowcroft wrote: [..] > I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads I see a bright future without such a network and likely for the folks who even would want to use something like that a bright future with the sentences: "Thank you for installer Adblock Plus IP header edition" Ads live of eyeballs and more importantly the tracking of what you are doing and the reselling of that (aggregated) information. When the ad networks can't get any detail out of it, because folks use Tor, TLS or Adblockers over the link, there is nothing for them to gain and thus they will fortunately not participate into things like that. Maybe one could try putting some of the grant money used for these kind of proposals in operating such a network instead?! ;) Greets, Jeroen From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 02:35:20 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:35:20 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters, you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services arrive is approximately 72 hours. A ver good text if you want a summary of many real world disasters is this book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075 The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN) is better than nothing. vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data _along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now. of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything, except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know anything In missive , Pars Mutaf typed: >> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>wrote: >> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to >>> hand >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. >> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. >> >> >> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. >>> >>> >> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. >> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. >> >> >> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great >>> target for the other side >>> >> >> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. >> >> >> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the >>infrastructure >>network. >> >> >> >>> your move, sunshine. >>> >>> In missive >> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >>> >> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet >>> radio >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for >>> anything >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, >>> not the >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used >>> for. >>> >>>> They cannot explain. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I >>> am >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>> >>>> Pars >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < >>> >>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> Par >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many >>> >>>>> pointers were given) >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not >>> relevant. >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any >>> hope >>> >>>>> of >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>d/ >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>-- >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> cheers >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> jon >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>-- >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>> http://www.ietf.org/= >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>> class=3D"gmail_= >>> >>quote"> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> dir=3D"ltr"><>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> style= >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet >>> rad= >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> networ= >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

>>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can >>> imagine and= >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection >>> of o= >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

>>> >> >>> >> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" >>> <= >>> >>;>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= >>> >>.com> wrote:
>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon >>> Cro= >>> >>wcroft <>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> wrote:
>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px >>> #cc= >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>
>>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I didn't >>> chang= >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we really >>> ask t= >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>> themselves wh= >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
>>> >> >>> >> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>> Internet"= >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, >>>
Pars
=A0<= >>> >>br>
>> 0.8e= >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>
>>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>
>>> >>In missive <>> target=3D"_= >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>> >>

>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>> In missive <>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> Par
>>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant >>> prior= >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon >>> Crowcroft), it= >>> >> is not relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has >>> any= >>> >> hope of
>>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>d/
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>=A0>> =A0bbiw.net >>> >> >>r> >>> >>
>>> >>
=A0cheers
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>
>>> >>


>> class=3D"HOEnZ= >>> >>b">
--
>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>>
<= >>> >>br> >>> >>
>>> >>


--
>> http://www.c= >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= >>> >>e.org

>>> >> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft = >><>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli= >>d;padding-left:1ex"> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to
>>hand
>>
>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>>

Preparing the balloons is not the users' task= >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare them.

= >>=A0
>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>
>>manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>


MANET may not work for isolated users in a di= >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest of the netw= >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to= >> work.
>>
=A0
>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>>target for the other side


I personally do not = >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they do obscur= >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most expensive= >> satellite phones. They do not care.
>>
=A0
>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>
>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.= >> Just use the infrastructure
network.

=A0
>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >> >>your move, sunshine.
>>
>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd= >>ing-left:1ex"> >>In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= >>il.
>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>
>>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>
=A0>>
>>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= >>urrent/msg12602.html
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>><jon.crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since AR= >>PA Packet radio
>>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, veh= >>icular
>>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything
>>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communi= >>cations, not the
>>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>=A0>>>> Jon.Crowc= >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" pos= >>er syndrome
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<= >>br> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask thi= >>s question?
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wha= >>t it is used for.
>>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for th= >>e Internet" =A0but I am
>>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> Cheers,
>>=A0>>>> Pars
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argume= >>nt(s))
>>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it = >>solves
>>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever vers= >>ion you choose
>>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> In missive <>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot= >>e:
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
>>=A0>>>>> >2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to= >> read the relevant prior work (many
>>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was give= >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thr= >>ead has been, or has any hope
>>=A0>>>>> of
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant= >>...
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> --
>>=A0>>>> >=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--
>>=A0>>>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>
>>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a hr= >>ef=3D3D"http://w= >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
>>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= >>il-arch=3D
>>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>=A0>>quote">
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D3= >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D3D"_blank">jon= >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>=A0>>.cam.ac.uk<= >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D3D"= >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-= >>left:1ex">
>>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist sinc= >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
>>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehic= >>ular networ=3D
>>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D= >>"http://thing.it&quo= >>t; target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can imag= >>ine and=3D
>>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the inters= >>ection of o=3D
>>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:4= >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
>>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= >>utaf at gmail=3D
>>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D3D"attribution&q= >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
>>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>= >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:= >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
>>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser sy= >>ndrome<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
>>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Intern= >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
>>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they di= >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
>>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want f= >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>= >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>=A0>>br></div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you c= >>hoose<br>
>>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" tar= >>get=3D3D"_=3D
>>=A0>>blank">= >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<= >>;br>
>>=A0>><div><div><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D= >>"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>=A0>>>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" target=3D3D"= >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>=A0>>>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com&= >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I e= >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
>>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 point= >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
>>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread= >> has been, or has any=3D
>>=A0>> hope of<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_b= >>lank">bbiw.net<= >>;/a><b=3D
>> >>=A0>>r>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>><span><font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D>> >>=A0>>b"><font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= >>- <br><a href=3D3D">get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>cience.org&q= >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>a><br><=3D
>> >>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D3D"= >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D">www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>=A0>>on= >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= >>ased-scienc=3D
>> >>=A0>>e.org</a>&l= >>t;br><br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>
>>=A0cheers
>>
>>=A0 =A0jon
>>
>>



--
>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>ent-based-science.org

>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- cheers jon From michawe at ifi.uio.no Wed Sep 19 02:40:32 2012 From: michawe at ifi.uio.no (Michael Welzl) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:40:32 +0200 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <50598D82.40101@comp.lancs.ac.uk> References: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> <50595771.8090809@isi.edu> <50598D82.40101@comp.lancs.ac.uk> Message-ID: +1 btw, about the balloon-vs-MANETs example in ad hoc networks that you pointed to: this may in fact not be so far off for some situations, it reminds me of mobile sinks in WSNs (yes, again, other people had similar ideas already). the right thing to do would be to build it and systematically evaluate it against various scenarios of MANETs, if you want to make the point that MANETs are useless. indeed, you might then find that MANETs could often be replaced with a balloon. neat idea, and a nice result worth publishing, once it's done. (though, people have given you counterexamples on that other list - you won't ALWAYS be able to replace a MANET that way; i would say that the world isn't as black and white as you describe it) On 19. sep. 2012, at 11:16, Laurent Mathy wrote: > >> Thank you all for all these information. I have unfortunately no more >> faith in this kind of research. This is my personal opinion of course. > > What you have faith in is not the issue. However, systematically shooting down people who have invested some of their precious time entertaining the discussion you started, and telling them that their methods are no good and work irrelevant is at best not conducive to constructive interactions and at worst down right awful etiquette. > > My guess is that it is now time you ask yourself whether you really want to have discussion or just keep talking out people... > > Regards, > > Laurent > From neil.davies at pnsol.com Wed Sep 19 02:40:24 2012 From: neil.davies at pnsol.com (Neil Davies) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:40:24 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FAB38E7-AE3D-42EF-BAC7-753DEE8D1318@pnsol.com> Ah Jon, if only it was that easy. We've been looking at this from the inside (i.e telcos, large public networks) - yes there is "bandwidth usage as the marginal opportunity cost" argument, but that is not the constraining factor. The constraining factor is their cost/value/RoI models, how the view the products they market and the (almost complete) inability of senior decision makers to be able to engage with the emergent properties of packet statistical multiplexing?. Its not about the money, its about the aspirations and expectations. Neil On 19 Sep 2012, at 09:20, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > > So here's an idea - (pace, Bob Briscoe and Google Adwords) > > Decongestant Adverts > (DA - Like > Congestion Exposure, only backwards - employing Yet Another Level of Redirection called > Re-Re-ECN... > > bandwidth doesn't have much operational cost - te real cosrt is the shadow price of other people's traffic you displace - if there isn't other traffic, then the additional cost of carrying yours is little. > > So we can have a receiver pays model for capacity - and the way they pay is via third party ads.. > > now this works very nicely if we observe that > congesiton exposire requires you to transparently reveal where the congestion is - i.e. the source of ECN marks... > > so the source can also reflect the receiver to a wiling advertiser site, who then sends adverts with ECN-willing-to-pay marks ... > > sine the adverts flow the opposite direction from the traffic they don't add to congestion - indeed on many links (e.g. Adsl) there's plenty of capacity that way anyway > > that way, the net is free at the network layer, not just uo in the clouds > > what say? > > I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads > > j. > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > > On Sep 18, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > > > Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if > > we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government > > services run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are > > configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP > > addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, > > then the network operators can always allow access to these services. > > So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont > > think so. > > There's no technical challenge there. It's a business problem. Allocate some addresses from the existing pool and use them for a defined service such as you're describing. > > What happens next, of course, is that since bandwidth costs money and no money is being exchanged, one gets no bandwidth. You've had the experience in hotels, no doubt; they offer free wifi in every room, by which they mean they have installed wifi APs on a LAN and connected that to some service provider. It works just fine as long as you send no packets on it. If you decide to send packets, oh, well gee. 20% loss is not a problem, is it? It's better than losing ALL of the packets, and after all it's free... > > TANSTAAFL... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/91a09ef0/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 02:40:54 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 12:40:54 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Sorry I don't believe this. I continue to question everything. I don't believe that there is a 72 hours delay. We have helicopters, etc. If there is an unacceptable delay, the right approach is to invest on decreasing this delay because communication is not the only problem in a disasters scenario. People need food, water, etc. Do some meditation and ask yourself the *real reason of these publications*. It took me 5 years to see the naked truth. On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters, > you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services > arrive is approximately 72 hours. > > A ver good text if you want a summary of many > real world disasters is this book > > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075 > > The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN) > is better than nothing. > > vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks > are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data > _along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to > deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now. > > of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything, > except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and > told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led > to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone > to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know > anything > > In missive com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > > >> > >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in > >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to > >>> hand > >>> > >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, > >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed > >>> > >>> > >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. > >> > >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. > >> > >> > >> > >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. > >>> > >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. > >>> > >>> > >> > >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario > >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. > >> > >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. > >> > >> > >> > >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great > >>> target for the other side > >>> > >> > >> > >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, > >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just > >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big > >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. > >>> > >>> > >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the > >>infrastructure > >>network. > >> > >> > >> > >>> your move, sunshine. > >>> > >>> In missive > >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: > >>> >> > >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA > Packet > >>> radio > >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular > >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for > >>> anything > >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > communications, > >>> not the > >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. > >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the > >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the > >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this > question? > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is > used > >>> for. > >>> >>>> They cannot explain. > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" > but I > >>> am > >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> Cheers, > >>> >>>> Pars > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) > >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves > >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose > >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed: > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < > >>> >>>>> > CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> Par > >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work > (many > >>> >>>>> pointers were given) > >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not > >>> relevant. > >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or > has any > >>> hope > >>> >>>>> of > >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>d/ > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>-- > >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker > >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> cheers > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> jon > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> -- > >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >> > >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>>> http://www.ietf.org/= > >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= > >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>>> class=3D"gmail_= > >>> >>quote"> > >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> dir=3D"ltr">< >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= > >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
class=3D"gmail_quote" > >>> style= > >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA > Packet > >>> rad= > >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > vehicular > >>> networ= > >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >>> target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can > >>> imagine and= > >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > intersection > >>> of o= > >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars > Mutaf" > >>> <= > >>> >>; >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= > >>> >>.com> wrote:
>>> class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 > PM, Jon > >>> Cro= > >>> >>wcroft < >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = > >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>> wrote:
>>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1px > >>> #cc= > >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>> >>
> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I > didn't > >>> chang= > >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we > really > >>> ask t= > >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask > >>> themselves wh= > >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > >>> Internet"= > >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, > >>>
Pars
=A0<= > >>> >>br>
0pt > >>> 0.8e= > >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>
> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you > choose
> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>
> >>> >>In missive < >>> target=3D"_= > >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed:
> >>> >>

> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive < >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= > >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= > >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> Par
> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the > relevant > >>> prior= > >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon > >>> Crowcroft), it= > >>> >> is not relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, > or has > >>> any= > >>> >> hope of
> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>d/
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0 > bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>r> > >>> >>
> >>> >>
=A0cheers
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>
> >>> >>


>>> class=3D"HOEnZ= > >>> >>b">
--
>>> http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > >>>
<= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>
> >>> >>


--
>>> http://www.c= > >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= > >>> >>e.org

> >>> >> > >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon > Crowcroft = > >>< target= > >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > wrote:
>> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > soli= > >>d;padding-left:1ex"> > >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to
> >>hand
> >>
> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the users' > task= > >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare > them.

= > >>=A0
0.8e= > >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>
> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>


MANET may not work for isolated users in > a di= > >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest of the > netw= > >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low > probability to= > >> work.
> >>
=A0
0pt = > >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
> >>target for the other side


I personally do > not = > >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they do > obscur= > >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most > expensive= > >> satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>
=A0
0pt = > >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>
> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
> >>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily > dangerous*.= > >> Just use the infrastructure
network.

=A0
class= > >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px > solid rg= > >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>your move, sunshine.
> >>
class=3D"gmail_quote" st= > >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padd= > >>ing-left:1ex"> > >>In missive > <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= > >>il.
> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>
> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>
=A0>>
> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= > >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= > >>urrent/msg12602.html
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>=A0>>< ">jon.crowcroft@= > >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist > since AR= > >>PA Packet radio
> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > veh= > >>icular
> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one http://thing= > >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything
> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > communi= > >>cations, not the
> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" < href=3D= > >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft > <
> >>=A0>>>> ">Jon.Crowc= > >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" > pos= > >>er syndrome
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable > solution,<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask > thi= > >>s question?
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves > wha= > >>t it is used for.
> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want > for th= > >>e Internet" =A0but I am
> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
> >>=A0>>>> Pars
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > argume= > >>nt(s))
> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem > it = > >>solves
> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever > vers= > >>ion you choose
> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> In missive < 50589DCC.2030808 at d= > >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed:
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > wrot= > >>e:
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
> >>=A0>>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= > >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= > >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage > you to= > >> read the relevant prior work (many
> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was > give= > >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this > thr= > >>ead has been, or has any hope
> >>=A0>>>>> of
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not > relevant= > >>...
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0 target= > >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> --
> >>=A0>>>> target= > >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>
> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. > See:<br><br><a hr= > >>ef=3D3D" > http://w= > >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> href=3D= > >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/ma= > >>il-arch=3D
> > >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= > >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
> >>=A0>>quote">
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span > dir=3D3= > >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= > >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > target=3D3D"_blank">jon= > >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
> >>=A0>>.cam.ac.uk > <= > >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote > class=3D3D"= > >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > solid;padding-= > >>left:1ex">
> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist > sinc= > >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > vehic= > >>ular networ=3D
> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a > href=3D3D= > >>"http://thing.it > &quo= > >>t; target=3D
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> target=3D= > >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can > imag= > >>ine and=3D
> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > inters= > >>ection of o=3D
> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 > 17:4= > >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: pars.mutaf at gmail.= > >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" > target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= > >>utaf at gmail=3D
> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br > type=3D3D"attribution&q= > >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > #ccc s= > >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><br><br><div > class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= > >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
> >>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a > href=3D= > >>3D"mailto: ">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"> Jon.Crowcroft= > >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&gt;</span>= > >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin:= > >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; > poser sy= > >>ndrome<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable > solution,<br>
> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>=A0>>problem (or the > assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= > >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the > Intern= > >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, > they di= > >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we > want f= > >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. > <br><br>= > >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote > class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= > >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > argument(s))<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it > solves<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version > you c= > >>hoose<br>
> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: href=3D"mailto= > >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" > tar= > >>get=3D3D"_=3D
> >>=A0>>blank"> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= > >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker > typed:<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > wrote:&= > >>lt;br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a > href=3D3D= > >>"mailto: ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= > >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
> >>=A0>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= > >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > target=3D3D"= > >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
> >>=A0>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= > >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com > &= > >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; > I e= > >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 > point= > >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly > relevant.<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this > thread= > >> has been, or has any=3D
> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not > relevant...= > >><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg > InternetWorking<br>= > >>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D" href=3D"http:= > >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" > target=3D3D"_b= > >>lank">bbiw.net > <= > >>;/a><b=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>r>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>><span><font > color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= > >>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= > >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span > class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D >>> > >>=A0>>b"><font > color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= > >>- <br><a href=3D3D" tar= > >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>=A0>>cience.org > &q= > >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.content-based-s= > >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > </= > >>a><br><=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>br>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br > clear=3D3D"= > >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D" href=3D"http://= > >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">on= > >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank"> href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-b= > >>ased-scienc=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>e.org > </a>&l= > >>t;br><br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>
> >>=A0cheers
> >>
> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>
> >>



--
href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.cont= > >>ent-based-science.org

> >> > >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/3f2e33f5/attachment-0001.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 02:43:22 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 10:43:22 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <5059918E.2050204@unfix.org> References: <5059918E.2050204@unfix.org> Message-ID: poor people pay with their time to get money and rich people pay with their money to get time... poor people may tolerate adverts and their eyeball time so as they don't have to spend money subscribing to go faster DSL while rich people will subscribe to ad free services... very few people use ToR really or install ad blocking s/w on their smart phones yet - you're right though, if we did blanket adverts more people would the real problem wth my proposal is that the layer violation represents a privacy invasion, that crosses two domains which have different legal and regulatory controls w.r.t privacy - the IP layer guys want to keep whatever they believe to be common carrier status - so looking in packets is bad news - attempts by ISPs to do this for comercial gain has been defeated legally (c.f. cases in the UK with phorm) however, RE-ECN is end-to-end, so the point here is that congestion exposure (ISPs revealing where one users traffic is incurring cost to other users) is revealed to both ends- this is where advertising already happens (see our upcoming IMC paper on mobile advertising ecosystem) - having the poorer user accept adverts in exchange for free network (e.g. on congested 3G/4G links) would be perfectly feasible without the cross layer cross lawyer messup alluded to above people avoiding it via ToR or IP AdBlock would just get packet drop, the way people who ignore ECN get so their mileage will vary, downwoods (downwards) only the game theory of this is all played out in bob briscoe's fine phd thesis if you want a good read... In missive <5059918E.2050204 at unfix.org>, Jeroen Massar typed: >>On 2012-09-19 10:20 , Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>[..] >> >>> I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads >> >>I see a bright future without such a network and likely for the folks >>who even would want to use something like that a bright future with the >>sentences: >> >>"Thank you for installer Adblock Plus IP header edition" >> >>Ads live of eyeballs and more importantly the tracking of what you are >>doing and the reselling of that (aggregated) information. When the ad >>networks can't get any detail out of it, because folks use Tor, TLS or >>Adblockers over the link, there is nothing for them to gain and thus >>they will fortunately not participate into things like that. >> >>Maybe one could try putting some of the grant money used for these kind >>of proposals in operating such a network instead?! ;) >> >>Greets, >> Jeroen >> cheers jon From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 04:13:10 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 14:13:10 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <94918447-F431-444F-89A4-E23B6711D9CC@ifi.uio.no> <50595771.8090809@isi.edu> <50598D82.40101@comp.lancs.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:40 PM, Michael Welzl wrote: > +1 > > btw, about the balloon-vs-MANETs example in ad hoc networks that you > pointed to: this may in fact not be so far off for some situations, it > reminds me of mobile sinks in WSNs (yes, again, other people had similar > ideas already). the right thing to do would be to build it and > systematically evaluate it against various scenarios of MANETs, if you want > to make the point that MANETs are useless. indeed, you might then find that > MANETs could often be replaced with a balloon. neat idea, and a nice result > worth publishing, once it's done. > > No it is not worth publishing. Why publish? This is not even science. Another solution: I can for example drop 100s satellite phones, food, and water from an airplane. Why MANET? I will propose this to a conference? This is not even science. MANET doesn't work for isolated victims not in reach of others = MANET doesn't work. > (though, people have given you counterexamples on that other list - you > won't ALWAYS be able to replace a MANET that way; i would say that the > world isn't as black and white as you describe it) > > > > On 19. sep. 2012, at 11:16, Laurent Mathy wrote: > > > > >> Thank you all for all these information. I have unfortunately no more > >> faith in this kind of research. This is my personal opinion of course. > > > > What you have faith in is not the issue. However, systematically > shooting down people who have invested some of their precious time > entertaining the discussion you started, and telling them that their > methods are no good and work irrelevant is at best not conducive to > constructive interactions and at worst down right awful etiquette. > > > > My guess is that it is now time you ask yourself whether you really want > to have discussion or just keep talking out people... > > > > Regards, > > > > Laurent > > > > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/a8cf9659/attachment.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 07:04:12 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:04:12 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for the 3 days before more resources arrive. the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to optimse resoruce allocation. the balloons are visible here http://xkcd.com/1110/ if you clock and drag far enough along... In missive , Pars Mutaf typed: >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>wrote: >> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to >>> hand >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. >> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. >> >> >> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. >>> >>> >> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. >> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. >> >> >> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great >>> target for the other side >>> >> >> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. >> >> >> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the >>infrastructure >>network. >> >> >> >>> your move, sunshine. >>> >>> In missive >> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >>> >> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet >>> radio >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for >>> anything >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, >>> not the >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >>> >>>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used >>> for. >>> >>>> They cannot explain. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I >>> am >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>> >>>> Pars >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < >>> >>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> Par >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many >>> >>>>> pointers were given) >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not >>> relevant. >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any >>> hope >>> >>>>> of >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>d/ >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >>-- >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> cheers >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> jon >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>-- >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>> http://www.ietf.org/= >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>> class=3D"gmail_= >>> >>quote"> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> dir=3D"ltr"><>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> style= >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet >>> rad= >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> networ= >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

>>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can >>> imagine and= >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection >>> of o= >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

>>> >> >>> >> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" >>> <= >>> >>;>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= >>> >>.com> wrote:
>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon >>> Cro= >>> >>wcroft <>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> wrote:
>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px >>> #cc= >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>
>>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I didn't >>> chang= >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we really >>> ask t= >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>> themselves wh= >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
>>> >> >>> >> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>> Internet"= >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, >>>
Pars
=A0<= >>> >>br>
>> 0.8e= >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>
>>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>
>>> >>In missive <>> target=3D"_= >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>> >>

>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>> In missive <>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> Par
>>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant >>> prior= >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon >>> Crowcroft), it= >>> >> is not relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has >>> any= >>> >> hope of
>>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>d/
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>=A0>> =A0bbiw.net >>> >> >>r> >>> >>
>>> >>
=A0cheers
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>
>>> >>


>> class=3D"HOEnZ= >>> >>b">
--
>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>>
<= >>> >>br> >>> >>
>>> >>


--
>> http://www.c= >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= >>> >>e.org

>>> >> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft = >><>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli= >>d;padding-left:1ex"> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to
>>hand
>>
>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>>

Preparing the balloons is not the users' task= >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare them.

= >>=A0
>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>
>>manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>


MANET may not work for isolated users in a di= >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest of the netw= >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to= >> work.
>>
=A0
>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>>target for the other side


I personally do not = >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they do obscur= >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most expensive= >> satellite phones. They do not care.
>>
=A0
>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>
>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.= >> Just use the infrastructure
network.

=A0
>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >> >>your move, sunshine.
>>
>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd= >>ing-left:1ex"> >>In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= >>il.
>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>
>>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>
=A0>>
>>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= >>urrent/msg12602.html
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>><jon.crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since AR= >>PA Packet radio
>>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, veh= >>icular
>>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything
>>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communi= >>cations, not the
>>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>=A0>>>> Jon.Crowc= >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" pos= >>er syndrome
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<= >>br> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask thi= >>s question?
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wha= >>t it is used for.
>>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for th= >>e Internet" =A0but I am
>>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> Cheers,
>>=A0>>>> Pars
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argume= >>nt(s))
>>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it = >>solves
>>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever vers= >>ion you choose
>>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> In missive <>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot= >>e:
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
>>=A0>>>>> >2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to= >> read the relevant prior work (many
>>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was give= >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thr= >>ead has been, or has any hope
>>=A0>>>>> of
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant= >>...
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>> --
>>=A0>>>> >=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--
>>=A0>>>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>
>>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a hr= >>ef=3D3D"http://w= >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
>>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= >>il-arch=3D
>>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>=A0>>quote">
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D3= >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D3D"_blank">jon= >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>=A0>>.cam.ac.uk<= >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D3D"= >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-= >>left:1ex">
>>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist sinc= >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
>>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehic= >>ular networ=3D
>>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D= >>"http://thing.it&quo= >>t; target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can imag= >>ine and=3D
>>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the inters= >>ection of o=3D
>>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:4= >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
>>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= >>utaf at gmail=3D
>>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D3D"attribution&q= >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
>>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>= >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:= >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
>>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser sy= >>ndrome<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
>>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Intern= >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
>>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they di= >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
>>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want f= >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>= >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>=A0>>br></div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you c= >>hoose<br>
>>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" tar= >>get=3D3D"_=3D
>>=A0>>blank">= >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<= >>;br>
>>=A0>><div><div><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D= >>"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>=A0>>>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" target=3D3D"= >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>=A0>>>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com&= >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I e= >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
>>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 point= >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
>>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread= >> has been, or has any=3D
>>=A0>> hope of<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_b= >>lank">bbiw.net<= >>;/a><b=3D
>> >>=A0>>r>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>><span><font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D>> >>=A0>>b"><font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= >>- <br><a href=3D3D">get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>cience.org&q= >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>a><br><=3D
>> >>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D3D"= >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D">www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>=A0>>on= >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= >>ased-scienc=3D
>> >>=A0>>e.org</a>&l= >>t;br><br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>
>>=A0cheers
>>
>>=A0 =A0jon
>>
>>



--
>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>ent-based-science.org

>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- cheers jon From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 07:13:27 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:13:27 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem. One balloon can cover a very large area. But that's not the point. There are also other solutions. The point is that: MANET Doesn't work. If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution... On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in > all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply > insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, > nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. > > on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters > will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for > the 3 days before more resources arrive. > > the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also > provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness > input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find > where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide > help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to > optimse resoruce allocation. > > > the balloons are visible here > http://xkcd.com/1110/ > if you clock and drag far enough along... > > > In missive com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > > >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in > >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to > >>> hand > >>> > >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, > >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed > >>> > >>> > >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. > >> > >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. > >> > >> > >> > >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. > >>> > >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. > >>> > >>> > >> > >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario > >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. > >> > >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. > >> > >> > >> > >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great > >>> target for the other side > >>> > >> > >> > >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, > >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just > >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big > >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. > >>> > >>> > >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the > >>infrastructure > >>network. > >> > >> > >> > >>> your move, sunshine. > >>> > >>> In missive > >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: > >>> >> > >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA > Packet > >>> radio > >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular > >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for > >>> anything > >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > communications, > >>> not the > >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. > >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the > >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the > >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this > question? > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is > used > >>> for. > >>> >>>> They cannot explain. > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" > but I > >>> am > >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> Cheers, > >>> >>>> Pars > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) > >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves > >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose > >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed: > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < > >>> >>>>> > CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> Par > >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work > (many > >>> >>>>> pointers were given) > >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not > >>> relevant. > >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or > has any > >>> hope > >>> >>>>> of > >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>d/ > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>-- > >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker > >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> cheers > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> jon > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> -- > >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >> > >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>>> http://www.ietf.org/= > >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= > >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>>> class=3D"gmail_= > >>> >>quote"> > >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> dir=3D"ltr">< >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= > >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
class=3D"gmail_quote" > >>> style= > >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA > Packet > >>> rad= > >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > vehicular > >>> networ= > >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >>> target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can > >>> imagine and= > >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > intersection > >>> of o= > >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars > Mutaf" > >>> <= > >>> >>; >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= > >>> >>.com> wrote:
>>> class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 > PM, Jon > >>> Cro= > >>> >>wcroft < >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = > >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>> wrote:
>>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1px > >>> #cc= > >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>> >>
> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I > didn't > >>> chang= > >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we > really > >>> ask t= > >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask > >>> themselves wh= > >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > >>> Internet"= > >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, > >>>
Pars
=A0<= > >>> >>br>
0pt > >>> 0.8e= > >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>
> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you > choose
> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>
> >>> >>In missive < >>> target=3D"_= > >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed:
> >>> >>

> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive < >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= > >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= > >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> Par
> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the > relevant > >>> prior= > >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon > >>> Crowcroft), it= > >>> >> is not relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, > or has > >>> any= > >>> >> hope of
> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>d/
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0 > bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>r> > >>> >>
> >>> >>
=A0cheers
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>
> >>> >>


>>> class=3D"HOEnZ= > >>> >>b">
--
>>> http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > >>>
<= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>
> >>> >>


--
>>> http://www.c= > >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= > >>> >>e.org

> >>> >> > >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon > Crowcroft = > >>< target= > >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > wrote:
>> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > soli= > >>d;padding-left:1ex"> > >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to
> >>hand
> >>
> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the users' > task= > >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare > them.

= > >>=A0
0.8e= > >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>
> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>


MANET may not work for isolated users in > a di= > >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest of the > netw= > >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low > probability to= > >> work.
> >>
=A0
0pt = > >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
> >>target for the other side


I personally do > not = > >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they do > obscur= > >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most > expensive= > >> satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>
=A0
0pt = > >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>
> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
> >>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily > dangerous*.= > >> Just use the infrastructure
network.

=A0
class= > >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px > solid rg= > >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>your move, sunshine.
> >>
class=3D"gmail_quote" st= > >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padd= > >>ing-left:1ex"> > >>In missive > <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= > >>il.
> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>
> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>
=A0>>
> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= > >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= > >>urrent/msg12602.html
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>=A0>>< ">jon.crowcroft@= > >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist > since AR= > >>PA Packet radio
> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > veh= > >>icular
> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one http://thing= > >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything
> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > communi= > >>cations, not the
> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" < href=3D= > >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft > <
> >>=A0>>>> ">Jon.Crowc= > >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" > pos= > >>er syndrome
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable > solution,<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask > thi= > >>s question?
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves > wha= > >>t it is used for.
> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want > for th= > >>e Internet" =A0but I am
> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
> >>=A0>>>> Pars
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > argume= > >>nt(s))
> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem > it = > >>solves
> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever > vers= > >>ion you choose
> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> In missive < 50589DCC.2030808 at d= > >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed:
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > wrot= > >>e:
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
> >>=A0>>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= > >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= > >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage > you to= > >> read the relevant prior work (many
> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was > give= > >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this > thr= > >>ead has been, or has any hope
> >>=A0>>>>> of
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not > relevant= > >>...
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0 target= > >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>> --
> >>=A0>>>> target= > >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>
> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. > See:<br><br><a hr= > >>ef=3D3D" > http://w= > >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> href=3D= > >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/ma= > >>il-arch=3D
> > >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= > >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
> >>=A0>>quote">
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span > dir=3D3= > >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= > >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > target=3D3D"_blank">jon= > >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
> >>=A0>>.cam.ac.uk > <= > >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote > class=3D3D"= > >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > solid;padding-= > >>left:1ex">
> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist > sinc= > >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > vehic= > >>ular networ=3D
> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a > href=3D3D= > >>"http://thing.it > &quo= > >>t; target=3D
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> target=3D= > >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can > imag= > >>ine and=3D
> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > inters= > >>ection of o=3D
> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 > 17:4= > >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: pars.mutaf at gmail.= > >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" > target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= > >>utaf at gmail=3D
> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br > type=3D3D"attribution&q= > >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > #ccc s= > >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><br><br><div > class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= > >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
> >>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a > href=3D= > >>3D"mailto: ">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"> Jon.Crowcroft= > >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&gt;</span>= > >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin:= > >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; > poser sy= > >>ndrome<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable > solution,<br>
> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>=A0>>problem (or the > assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= > >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the > Intern= > >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, > they di= > >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we > want f= > >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. > <br><br>= > >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote > class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= > >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > argument(s))<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it > solves<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version > you c= > >>hoose<br>
> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: href=3D"mailto= > >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" > tar= > >>get=3D3D"_=3D
> >>=A0>>blank"> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= > >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker > typed:<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > wrote:&= > >>lt;br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a > href=3D3D= > >>"mailto: ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= > >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
> >>=A0>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= > >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > target=3D3D"= > >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
> >>=A0>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= > >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com > &= > >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; > I e= > >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 > point= > >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly > relevant.<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this > thread= > >> has been, or has any=3D
> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not > relevant...= > >><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg > InternetWorking<br>= > >>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D" href=3D"http:= > >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" > target=3D3D"_b= > >>lank">bbiw.net > <= > >>;/a><b=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>r>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>><span><font > color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= > >>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= > >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span > class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D >>> > >>=A0>>b"><font > color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= > >>- <br><a href=3D3D" tar= > >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>=A0>>cience.org > &q= > >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.content-based-s= > >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > </= > >>a><br><=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>br>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br > clear=3D3D"= > >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D" href=3D"http://= > >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">on= > >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank"> href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-b= > >>ased-scienc=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>e.org > </a>&l= > >>t;br><br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>
> >>=A0cheers
> >>
> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>
> >>



--
href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.cont= > >>ent-based-science.org

> >> > >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/c1412d18/attachment-0001.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 07:33:55 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 15:33:55 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: In missive , Par s Mutaf typed: >>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem. >>One balloon can cover a very large area. no it cant - the phone signal wont reach it from far away (e.g. > 5k) so you need lots of ballons and the ballons have to coordinate and users move around and their batteries go flat faster co they have to boost the tx signal and rx sensitivity to max the area of some disasters (especially ones that wreck the infrastructure, like earthquales, tsunamis, hurricanes etc) aren't just trainwrecks (like this discussion) - they can be very very wide area... and the ballons move around in th wind, so you have to do dynamic, er, ad hoc routing between ballons unless you have backhaul back to the cellular network (e.g. via satellite) but that will take yet more power and introduce delays and be expensive and so on >>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions. >>The point is that: >>MANET Doesn't work. you claim - i've seen working manets - earliest one was in Land Rovers driving aroun the Malvern Hills at RSRE in 1986 - worked fine... >>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution... yes, you need a non network solution - you need things like safe water, safe food, dry land, and your wits. >> >> >> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Jon Crowcroft >>wrote: >> >>> the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in >>> all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply >>> insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, >>> nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. >>> >>> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters >>> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for >>> the 3 days before more resources arrive. >>> >>> the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also >>> provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness >>> input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find >>> where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide >>> help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to >>> optimse resoruce allocation. >>> >>> >>> the balloons are visible here >>> http://xkcd.com/1110/ >>> if you clock and drag far enough along... >>> >>> >>> In missive >> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to >>> >>> hand >>> >>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. >>> >> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. >>> >>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. >>> >> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great >>> >>> target for the other side >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the >>> >>infrastructure >>> >>network. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> your move, sunshine. >>> >>> >>> >>> In missive >>> >> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA >>> Packet >>> >>> radio >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for >>> >>> anything >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all >>> communications, >>> >>> not the >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this >>> question? >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is >>> used >>> >>> for. >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" >>> but I >>> >>> am >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>>> Pars >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker >>> typed: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < >>> >>> >>>>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> >>> Par >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work >>> (many >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not >>> >>> relevant. >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or >>> has any >>> >>> hope >>> >>> >>>>> of >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/ >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>-- >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>-- >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/= >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>> >>> class=3D"gmail_= >>> >>> >>quote"> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> class=3D"gmail_quote" >>> >>> style= >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA >>> Packet >>> >>> rad= >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, >>> vehicular >>> >>> networ= >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

>>> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >> >>> target= >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can >>> >>> imagine and= >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the >>> intersection >>> >>> of o= >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars >>> Mutaf" >>> >>> <= >>> >>> >>;>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= >>> >>> >>.com> wrote:
>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 >>> PM, Jon >>> >>> Cro= >>> >>> >>wcroft <>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >>> .8ex;border-left:1px >>> >>> #cc= >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I >>> didn't >>> >>> chang= >>> >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we >>> really >>> >>> ask t= >>> >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>> >>> themselves wh= >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>> >>> Internet"= >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, >>> >>>
Pars
=A0<= >>> >>> >>br>
>> 0pt >>> >>> 0.8e= >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you >>> choose
>>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>In missive <>> >>> target=3D"_= >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker >>> typed:
>>> >>> >>

>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> >>> Par
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the >>> relevant >>> >>> prior= >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon >>> >>> Crowcroft), it= >>> >>> >> is not relevant.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, >>> or has >>> >>> any= >>> >>> >> hope of
>>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>d/
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0 >>> bbiw.net >>> >>> >> >>> >>r> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
=A0cheers
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>


>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ= >>> >>> >>b">
--
>> >>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>>
<= >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>


--
>> >>> http://www.c= >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= >>> >>> >>e.org

>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>-- >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >> >>> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon >>> Crowcroft = >>> >><>> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> wrote:
>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> soli= >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to
>>> >>hand
>>> >>
>>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>>> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the users' >>> task= >>> >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare >>> them.

= >>> >>=A0
>> 0.8e= >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>> >>
>>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>> >>


MANET may not work for isolated users in >>> a di= >>> >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest of the >>> netw= >>> >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low >>> probability to= >>> >> work.
>>> >>
=A0
>> 0pt = >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>>> >>target for the other side


I personally do >>> not = >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they do >>> obscur= >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most >>> expensive= >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care.
>>> >>
=A0
>> 0pt = >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>
>>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>> >>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily >>> dangerous*.= >>> >> Just use the infrastructure
network.

=A0
>> class= >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px >>> solid rg= >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >>your move, sunshine.
>>> >>
>> class=3D"gmail_quote" st= >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);padd= >>> >>ing-left:1ex"> >>> >>In missive >>> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= >>> >>il.
>>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>
=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= >>> >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>=A0>><>> ">jon.crowcroft@= >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist >>> since AR= >>> >>PA Packet radio
>>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, >>> veh= >>> >>icular
>>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >> http://thing= >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything
>>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all >>> communi= >>> >>cations, not the
>>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <>> href=3D= >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft >>> <
>>> >>=A0>>>> >> ">Jon.Crowc= >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" >>> pos= >>> >>er syndrome
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable >>> solution,<= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask >>> thi= >>> >>s question?
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves >>> wha= >>> >>t it is used for.
>>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want >>> for th= >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am
>>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
>>> >>=A0>>>> Pars
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E >>> argume= >>> >>nt(s))
>>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem >>> it = >>> >>solves
>>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever >>> vers= >>> >>ion you choose
>>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <>> 50589DCC.2030808 at d= >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker >>> typed:
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> wrot= >>> >>e:
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
>>> >>=A0>>>>> >> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage >>> you to= >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many
>>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was >>> give= >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this >>> thr= >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope
>>> >>=A0>>>>> of
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not >>> relevant= >>> >>...
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> --
>>> >>=A0>>>> >> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>>>> target=3D"_blan= >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. >>> See:<br><br><a hr= >>> >>ef=3D3D" >>> http://w= >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
>>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">>> href=3D= >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.ietf.org/ma= >>> >>il-arch=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>> >>=A0>>quote">
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span >>> dir=3D3= >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
>>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon= >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>> >>=A0>>.cam.ac.uk >>> <= >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote >>> class=3D3D"= >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> solid;padding-= >>> >>left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist >>> sinc= >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
>>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, >>> vehic= >>> >>ular networ=3D
>>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a >>> href=3D3D= >>> >>"http://thing.it >>> &quo= >>> >>t; target=3D
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>> target=3D= >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can >>> imag= >>> >>ine and=3D
>>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the >>> inters= >>> >>ection of o=3D
>>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 >>> 17:4= >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>> pars.mutaf at gmail.= >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" >>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D
>>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br >>> type=3D3D"attribution&q= >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px >>> #ccc s= >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br><div >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
>>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a >>> href=3D= >>> >>3D"mailto:>> ">Jon.Crowcroft@= >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> Jon.Crowcroft= >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>> </a>&gt;</span>= >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >>> style=3D3D"margin:= >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; >>> poser sy= >>> >>ndrome<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable >>> solution,<br>
>>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>problem (or the >>> assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
>>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the >>> Intern= >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
>>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, >>> they di= >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
>>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we >>> want f= >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. >>> <br><br>= >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E >>> argument(s))<br&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it >>> solves<br&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version >>> you c= >>> >>hoose<br>
>>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>> href=3D"mailto= >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" >>> tar= >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D
>>> >>=A0>>blank">>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker >>> typed:<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> wrote:&= >>> >>lt;br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a >>> href=3D3D= >>> >>"mailto:>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>> >>=A0>>>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> target=3D3D"= >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= >>> >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> &= >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; >>> I e= >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
>>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 >>> point= >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
>>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly >>> relevant.<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this >>> thread= >>> >> has been, or has any=3D
>>> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not >>> relevant...= >>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg >>> InternetWorking<br>= >>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">> href=3D"http:= >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" >>> target=3D3D"_b= >>> >>lank">bbiw.net >>> <= >>> >>;/a><b=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>r>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>> >>=A0>><span><font >>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= >>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span >>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font >>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D">> tar= >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>cience.org >>> &q= >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>> </= >>> >>a><br><=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>br>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br >>> clear=3D3D"= >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D">> href=3D"http://= >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>> >>=A0>>>> target=3D"_blank">on= >>> >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>> href= >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-b= >>> >>ased-scienc=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>e.org >>> </a>&l= >>> >>t;br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0cheers
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>
>>> >>



--
>> href= >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.cont= >>> >>ent-based-science.org

>>> >> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6 >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem.
>>
>>One balloon can cover a very large area.
>>
>>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions.
>>
>>The point is that:
>>
>>MANET Doesn't work.
>>
>>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution..= >>.




On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:0= >>4 PM, Jon Crowcroft <>l.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wr= >>ote:
>>
>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">the resources to put enough ballons (as many= >> as cell towers) in
>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
>>
>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>>
>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
>>optimse resoruce allocation.
>>
>>
>>the balloons are visible here
>>http://xkcd.com/1110/>a>
>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
>>

>>
>>In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.g= >>mail.
>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>
>>
=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>
=A0>>
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>><Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>
>>
=A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have be= >>en studied in
>>=A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they= >> have to
>>=A0>>> hand
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,= >> japan,
>>=A0>>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you d= >>esribed
>>
=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
>>
=A0>>because they are too far away from the rest of the network= >>.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to w= >>ork.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is = >>a great
>>
=A0>>> target for the other side
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really rese= >>arch,
>>
=A0>>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. T= >>hey can just
>>
=A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones. They = >>do not care.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>>
>>
=A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon wo= >>uld be a big
>>=A0>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under brid= >>ges.
>>
=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the>r> >>=A0>>infrastructure
>>=A0>>network.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>> your move, sunshine.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+J= >>zTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
>>=A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enou= >>gh Jon. See:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>>e/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= >>il-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<= >>br> >>
=A0>>> =A0>><>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use case= >>s exist since ARPA Packet
>>=A0>>> radio
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster = >>recovery networks, vehicular
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some actually = >>in use ad deployed.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for<= >>br> >>=A0>>> anything
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the unio= >>n of all communications,
>>=A0>>> not the
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one notion with one t= >>echnology.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf"= >>; <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> = >>wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cr= >>owcroft <
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> >ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about = >>as the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even f= >>or you" poser syndrome
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a wor= >>kable solution,
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of the= >> problem) changes the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet?= >> Did we really ask this question?
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not as= >>k themselves what it is used
>>=A0>>> for.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot explain.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What d= >>o we want for the Internet" =A0but I
>>
=A0>>> am
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (an= >>d the E2E argument(s))
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change= >> the problem it solves
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way it = >>still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive <>589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Cr= >>ocker typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jo= >>n Crowcroft wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> >xaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae= >>C2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>=A0>>> Par
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I = >>encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were given)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 = >>pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
>>=A0>>> relevant.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relev= >>ant.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of = >>whether this thread has been, or has any
>>=A0>>> hope
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> of
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it = >>was not relevant...
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg Internet= >>Working
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>iw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> --
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> >ence.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>&l= >>t;br><a href=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> http:= >>//www.ietf.org/=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quo= >>t;>
>>=A0>>> >nk">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><= >>;br><br><br><br><div
>>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>quote">
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jo= >>n Crowcroft <span
>>
=A0>>> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a = >>hr=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.= >>cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote= >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>> style=3D
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1= >>px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use = >>cases exist since ARPA Packet
>>=A0>>> rad=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery= >> networks, vehicular
>>
=A0>>> networ=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one= >> <a href=3D3D"http://= >>thing.it"
>>=A0>>> target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>ng.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anyt= >>hing we can
>>=A0>>> imagine and=3D
>>
=A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union of all communic= >>ations, not the intersection
>>
=A0>>> of o=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote"&= >>gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;
>>
=A0>>> &lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>ars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D3D&qu= >>ot;attribution"><blockquote
>>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border= >>-left:1px #ccc
>>=A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div class=3D3D&quo= >>t;gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon
>>
=A0>>> Cro=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&= >>lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>=A0>>> Jon.Crowcroft= >>@cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&= >>;gt;</span>
>>=A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" s= >>tyle=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>
=A0>>> #cc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&am= >>p;quot; poser syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable s= >>olution,<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem) cha= >>nges the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the assumptions)<br></block= >>quote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t
>>=A0>>> chang=3D
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do = >>we want for the Internet? Did we really
>>=A0>>> ask t=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for = >>example, they did not ask
>>=A0>>> themselves wh=3D
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They cannot= >> explain. <br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a new thread &= >>quot;What do we want for the
>>=A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <= >>;br><br>Cheers,
>>
=A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br></div><blockquote class=3D3D"= >>;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>=A0>>> 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= >>-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E= >>2E argument(s))<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem = >>it solves<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still doesn&#3= >>9;t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<= >>a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.n= >>et"
>>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>blank">>8 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave C= >>rocker typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div><br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2= >>012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt= >>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>=A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>q2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"<= >>br> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>FcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mai= >>l.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
>>=A0>>> Par<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<= >>br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant
>>=A0>>> prior=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&= >>;gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>=A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whe= >>ther this thread has been, or has
>>=A0>>> any=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was= >> not relevant...<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetW= >>orking<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"= >>http://bbiw.net" tar= >>get=3D3D"_blank">>>bbiw.net
>> >>=A0>>> </a><b=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span><font color=3D3D"#888888&quo= >>t;><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><= >>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><span
>>=A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>b"><font color=3D3D"#888888"= >>;><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> ht= >>tp://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>= >>cience.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scie= >>nce.org
>> >>=A0>>> </a><br><=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><= >>;/div>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></blockquote></div><br><br = >>clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D">r> >>=A0>>> http://www.c= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>et=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank&qu= >>ot;>
>>=A0>>> >k">http://www.content-based-scienc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e.org= >></a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--
>>=A0>>>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>
>>
=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Wed,= >> Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =3D
>>
=A0>><span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;&l= >>t;a href=3D3D"mailto:Jon= >>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>m.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrot= >>e:<br><blockquote=3D
>>
=A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:= >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=3D
>>=A0>>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied = >>in<br>
>>=A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with resources they ha= >>ve to<br>
>>=A0>>hand<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japa= >>n,<br>
>>=A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desrib= >>ed<br>
>>=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the = >>balloons is not the users&#39; task=3D
>>=A0>> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross wil= >>l prepare them.<br><br>=3D
>>
=A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D&quo= >>t;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>
=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br><br&g= >>t;MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=3D
>>=A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the= >> rest of the netw=3D
>>=A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a = >>very low probability to=3D
>>
=A0>> work.<br>
>>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_= >>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu= >>ot;>
>>
=A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is= >> a great<br>
>>
=A0>>target for the other side<br></blockq= >>uote><div><br><br>I personally do not =3D
>>=A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>becau= >>se they do obscur=3D
>>=A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use t= >>he most expensive=3D
>>=A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
>>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_= >>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu= >>ot;>
>>=A0>><br>
>>
=A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would b= >>e a big<br>
>>=A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.&= >>lt;br>
>>
=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br= >>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=3D
>>=A0>> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br&= >>gt;=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D
>>
=A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0p= >>t 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D
>>
=A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>your move, sunshine.<br>
>>=A0>><br></blockquote><div></div><div>&= >>lt;/div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D
>>
=A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol= >>id rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D
>>
=A0>>ing-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+Jz= >>Tx6F5g at mail.gma=3D
>>=A0>>il.<br>
>>=A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D3DISO-8= >>859-1<br>
>>
=A0>><div><div class=3D3D"h5">=3DA0&g= >>t;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"= >>_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D
>>=A0>>g12602.html" target=3D3D"_blank">>tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www= >>.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D
>>=A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowc= >>roft<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D3D&q= >>uot;mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.c= >>am.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=3D
>>=A0>>cl.cam.ac.uk>a></a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many= >> use cases exist since AR=3D
>>=A0>>PA Packet radio<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disast= >>er recovery networks, veh=3D
>>=A0>>icular<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad= >> deployed.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn= >>&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D">t=3D"_blank">http://thing=3D
>>
=A0>>.it" target=3D3D"_blank">>://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, fo= >>r anything<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is= >> the union of all communi=3D
>>=A0>>cations, not the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with on= >>e technology.<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 1= >>7:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>"mailto:pars.mutaf@= >>gmail.com">pars.mutaf at g= >>mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:= >>17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a hr= >>ef=3D3D"mailto:Jon.Crowc= >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=3D
>>
=A0>>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >></a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we us= >>ed to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my probl= >>em is too hard even for you&quot; pos=3D
>>=A0>>er syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, wheneve= >>r you offer a workable solution,<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the = >>problem) changes the<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t = >>change the problem:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the In= >>ternet? Did we really ask thi=3D
>>=A0>>s question?<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, th= >>ey did not ask themselves wha=3D
>>=A0>>t it is used for.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread= >> &quot;What do we want for th=3D
>>=A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I am<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do th= >>is.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice th= >>ings about IP (and the E2E argume=3D
>>=A0>>nt(s))<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is real= >>ly hard to change the problem it =3D
>>
=A0>>solves<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still = >>doesn&#39;t solve, whichever vers=3D
>>=A0>>ion you choose<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe n= >>ot IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt= >>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:50589DCC= >>.2030808 at d=3D
>>
=A0>>crocker.n= >>et">50589DCC.2= >>030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>>> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=3D
>>=A0>>e:<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt= >>;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >><a href=3D3D"mailto:>DwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=3D
>>=A0>>2BV2X= >>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i= >>DwO+V2X=3D
>>=A0>>V1tFcP5PgT+V= >>q2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt= >>;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to=3D
>>=A0>> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were give= >>n)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was give=3D
>>
=A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;in the broader sense of whether this thr=3D
>>=A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant=3D
>>=A0>>...<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;d/<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&= >>gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt= >>;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D
>>
=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>get=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0cheers<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 =3DA0jon<= >>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D3D">ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.co= >>ntent-based-science.org" target=3D
>>
=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>ww.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-sc= >>ience.org</a><br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ref=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c= >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blan=3D
>>=A0>>k">>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b= >>204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D3DISO-88= >>59-1<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable= >><br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:&lt= >>;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=3D
>>
=A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D">f=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D= >>" target=3D3D"_blank">>_blank">http://w=3D
>> >>=A0>>ww.ietf.o= >>rg/=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.htm= >>l&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>">blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D" target=3D3D"_blank= >>">http://ww= >>w.ietf.org/ma=3D
>> >>=A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;= >>/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&am= >>p;quot;gmail_=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon= >> Crowcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D
>>
=A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&a= >>mp;lt;a hr=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D&q= >>uot;mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.c= >>am.ac.uk=3D
>>
=A0>>">jo= >>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_bl= >>ank&quot;&gt;jon=3D
>>=A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D3D">.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D3D"_blan= >>k">cam.ac.uk<= >>/a>&lt=3D
>> >>=A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot=3D
>>=A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l= >>eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-=3D
>>=A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, su= >>re. Many use cases exist sinc=3D
>>
=A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disast= >>er recovery networks, vehic=3D
>>=A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&= >>lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#= >>39;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D
>>
=A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D">://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it" target=3D3D"_= >>blank">http://thing.i= >>t</a>&quo=3D
>> >>=A0>>t; target=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;&l= >>t;a href=3D3D"http://thi= >>ng.it" target=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>"_blank">>nk">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anythin= >>g we can imag=3D
>>=A0>>ine and=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all com= >>munications, not the inters=3D
>>
=A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quo= >>te&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=3D
>>=A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D3D<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<= >>a href=3D3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gma= >>il.=3D
>>=A0>>com">pars.mutaf@= >>gmail.com</a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&a= >>mp;gt;pars.m=3D
>>
=A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&a= >>mp;lt;br type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D
>>=A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quot= >>=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;mar= >>gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D
>>
=A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt= >>;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D3D&qu= >>ot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D
>>
=A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto= >>:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D
>>=A0>>cl.cam.ac.uk>a></a>&quot; =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&= >>;gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcr= >>oft=3D
>>
=A0>>@cl.cam.= >>ac.uk">Jon.Crowcr= >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&a= >>mp;gt=3D
>> >>
=A0>>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&am= >>p;quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D
>>=A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&a= >>mp;lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even f= >>or you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D
>>=A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br&= >>gt;
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a worka= >>ble solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&= >>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&= >>gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=3D
>>
=A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#3= >>9;t chang=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&= >>lt;br&gt;What do we want for the Intern=3D
>>
=A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&l= >>t;br&gt;Take MANET for example, they di=3D
>>
=A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explai= >>n. &lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new threa= >>d &amp;quot;What do we want f=3D
>>
=A0>>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br>>r> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure if I should= >> do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>
=A0>>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&= >>gt;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;block= >>quote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D
>>=A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D3D<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa= >>dding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D
>>=A0>>gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2= >>E argument(s))&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the pro= >>blem it solves&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve= >>, whichever version you c=3D
>>=A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&g= >>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3= >>D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto=3D
>>=A0>>:50589DCC.20308= >>08 at dcrocker.net">>t">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&quot; tar=3D
>>
=A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"= >>;mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d= >>crocker.net">=3D
>>
=A0>>50589DCC.= >>2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Croc= >>ker typed:&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&= >>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012= >> 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&=3D
>>=A0>>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= >> In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D
>>
=A0>>&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:<= >>a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D
>>=A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>to:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP= >>5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=3D
>>=A0>>om">>mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&= >>amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&quot=3D
>>=A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>to:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw= >>O%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=3D
>>=A0>>ail.gmail.com= >>">>A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>a></a>&=3D
>> >>
=A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= >> s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= >> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D
>>
=A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&= >>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= >> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D
>>
=A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D3D<br= >>>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= >> it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broad= >>er sense of whether this thread=3D
>>
=A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, const= >>ructive, it was not relevant...=3D
>>=A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Dave= >> Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Bran= >>denburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0&= >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http:=3D
>>
=A0>>//>">bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank">>w.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot; target=3D3= >>D3D&quot;_b=3D
>> >>
=A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_= >>blank">bbiw.net&l= >>t;/a>&lt=3D
>> >>
=A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&= >>lt;br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&= >>gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D= >>3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&= >>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt= >>;span class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D3= >>D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=3D
>>
=A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&= >>quot;<a href=3D3D">_blank">http://www.content-based-s" tar=3D
>>
=A0>>get=3D3D"_blank">>t-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D3D&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ce.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org" target=3D3D"_bla= >>nk">cience.org&= >>lt;/a>&q=3D
>> >>=A0>>uot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href= >>=3D3D"http://= >>www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>cience.org&q= >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>a>&lt;/=3D
>> >>=A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&= >>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&= >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http://=3D
>>
=A0>>www.c" target=3D3D"_blank"><= >>a href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">//ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://ontent-based-science.o= >>rg" target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D
>>=A0>>tent= >>-based-science.org</a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&am= >>p;quot;&gt;<a href=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D">"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D3D"_blank&= >>quot;>http://www.cont= >>ent-b=3D
>> >>=A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">g" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org" target=3D3D"_blank"&g= >>t;e.org</a>&lt;/a&= >>amp;gt;&l=3D
>> >>
=A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><= >>br> >>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>><span class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D3D&quo= >>t;#888888"><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D= >>
>>=A0>>=3D3D">et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D3D&qu= >>ot;_blank">http://www= >>.cont=3D
>> >>=A0>>ent-b= >>ased-science.org</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>>
>>=A0cheers
>>
>>=A0 =A0jon
>>
>>



--
>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-= >>based-science.org

>> >>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6-- cheers jon From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Wed Sep 19 08:33:51 2012 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 08:33:51 -0700 Subject: [e2e] 72 hours In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <5059E5DF.5050504@dcrocker.net> On 9/19/2012 7:04 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters > will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for > the 3 days before more resources arrive. I've been spending time in my local Red Cross chapter for awhile. FWIW, while 72 hours is the official number, folks teaching the Red Cross classes almost invariably advise doing preparation for 5-7 days. Given a liter of water per person per day, that's an example of a very large difference in planning and provisioning. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 08:38:16 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:38:16 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > In missive < > CACQuieamtc5eUqPHhe8toFtOy5zJ9zRBwWFQCN-NCwr0BSxwyQ at mail.gmail.com>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem. > >>One balloon can cover a very large area. > > no it cant - the phone signal wont reach it from far away (e.g. > 5k) > so you need lots of ballons and the ballons have to coordinate and users > move around and their batteries go flat faster co they have to boost the tx > signal and rx sensitivity to max > Lets try this before saying that it doesn't work. MANET is not a solution. Because it doesn't work for distant users, partitioned networks is not a small detail. It is fatal. > > the area of some disasters (especially ones that wreck the infrastructure, > like earthquales, tsunamis, hurricanes etc) aren't just trainwrecks (like > this discussion) - they can be very very wide area... > > and the ballons move around in th wind, so you have to do dynamic, er, ad > hoc routing between ballons > You are anticipating too much. Just deploy one and see how it works. > > unless you have backhaul back to the cellular network (e.g. via satellite) > but that will take yet more power and introduce delays and be expensive and > so on > > Of course, (this was explained in the provided link), the balloon is a relay to the satellite. We use a normal phone. The result will that of a satellite phone. > >>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions. > > >>The point is that: > >>MANET Doesn't work. > > you claim - i've seen working manets - earliest one was in Land Rovers > driving aroun the Malvern Hills at RSRE in 1986 - worked fine... > > >>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another > solution... > > yes, you need a non network solution - you need things like > safe water, safe food, dry land, > and your wits. > No my leg is broken I am bleeding. I need to call someone. > > >> > >> > >> > >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in > >>> all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply > >>> insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, > >>> nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. > >>> > >>> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters > >>> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for > >>> the 3 days before more resources arrive. > >>> > >>> the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also > >>> provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness > >>> input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find > >>> where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide > >>> help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to > >>> optimse resoruce allocation. > >>> > >>> > >>> the balloons are visible here > >>> http://xkcd.com/1110/ > >>> if you clock and drag far enough along... > >>> > >>> > >>> In missive > >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied > in > >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to > >>> >>> hand > >>> >>> > >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, > japan, > >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you > desribed > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. > >>> >> > >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario > >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. > >>> >> > >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to > work. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a > great > >>> >>> target for the other side > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really > research, > >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can > just > >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big > >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the > >>> >>infrastructure > >>> >>network. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> your move, sunshine. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> In missive > >>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>> >>wrote: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since > ARPA > >>> Packet > >>> >>> radio > >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > vehicular > >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by > definition, for > >>> >>> anything > >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > >>> communications, > >>> >>> not the > >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. > >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" > wrote: > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the > >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the > >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this > >>> question? > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what > it is > >>> used > >>> >>> for. > >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > Internet" > >>> but I > >>> >>> am > >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, > >>> >>> >>>> Pars > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) > >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves > >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you > choose > >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > >>> typed: > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> >>> Par > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work > >>> (many > >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it > is not > >>> >>> relevant. > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, > or > >>> has any > >>> >>> hope > >>> >>> >>>>> of > >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/ > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>-- > >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker > >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> cheers > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> jon > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> -- > >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>-- > >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/= > >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> > >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= > >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_= > >>> >>> >>quote"> > >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr">< >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= > >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote" > >>> >>> style= > >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since > ARPA > >>> Packet > >>> >>> rad= > >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > >>> vehicular > >>> >>> networ= > >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

> >>> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one http://thing.it" > >>> >>> target= > >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we > can > >>> >>> imagine and= > >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > >>> intersection > >>> >>> of o= > >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars > >>> Mutaf" > >>> >>> <= > >>> >>> >>; >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= > >>> >>> >>.com> wrote:
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at > 7:17 > >>> PM, Jon > >>> >>> Cro= > >>> >>> >>wcroft < >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = > >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > >>> .8ex;border-left:1px > >>> >>> #cc= > >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser > syndrome
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I > >>> didn't > >>> >>> chang= > >>> >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we > >>> really > >>> >>> ask t= > >>> >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask > >>> >>> themselves wh= > >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > >>> >>> Internet"= > >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, > >>> >>>
Pars
=A0<= > >>> >>> >>br>
style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt > >>> 0pt > >>> >>> 0.8e= > >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you > >>> choose
> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>In missive < 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" > >>> >>> target=3D"_= > >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > >>> typed:
> >>> >>> >>

> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive < >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= > >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= > >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com > >, > >>> >>> Par
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the > >>> relevant > >>> >>> prior= > >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon > >>> >>> Crowcroft), it= > >>> >>> >> is not relevant.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has > been, > >>> or has > >>> >>> any= > >>> >>> >> hope of
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0 > >>> bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>r> > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
=A0cheers
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>


>>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ= > >>> >>> >>b">
--
>>> >>> http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>>
<= > >>> >>> >>br> > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>


--
href=3D" > >>> >>> http://www.c= > >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= > >>> >>> >>e.org

> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- > >>> >>> > >>> >>> cheers > >>> >>> > >>> >>> jon > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >> > >>> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon > >>> Crowcroft = > >>> >>< " > >>> target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>> wrote:
>>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > #ccc > >>> soli= > >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied > in
> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have > to
> >>> >>hand
> >>> >>
> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, > japan,
> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you > desribed
> >>> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the > users' > >>> task= > >>> >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare > >>> them.

= > >>> >>=A0
0pt > >>> 0.8e= > >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>> >>


MANET may not work for isolated > users in > >>> a di= > >>> >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest of > the > >>> netw= > >>> >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low > >>> probability to= > >>> >> work.
> >>> >>
=A0
0pt > >>> 0pt = > >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a > great
> >>> >>target for the other side


I > personally do > >>> not = > >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they > do > >>> obscur= > >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most > >>> expensive= > >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>> >>
=A0
0pt > >>> 0pt = > >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>
> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a > big
> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
> >>> >>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily > >>> dangerous*.= > >>> >> Just use the infrastructure >
network.

=A0
>>> class= > >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px > >>> solid rg= > >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>your move, sunshine.
> >>> >>
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote" st= > >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > >>> rgb(204,204,204);padd= > >>> >>ing-left:1ex"> > >>> >>In missive > >>> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= > >>> >>il.
> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= > >>> >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= > >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>=A0>>< >>> ">jon.crowcroft@= > >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist > >>> since AR= > >>> >>PA Packet radio
> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery > networks, > >>> veh= > >>> >>icular
> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >>> http://thing= > >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for > anything
> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > >>> communi= > >>> >>cations, not the
> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" < >>> href=3D= > >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> > wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> <
> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> ">Jon.Crowc= > >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as > the
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for > you" > >>> pos= > >>> >>er syndrome
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable > >>> solution,<= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we > really ask > >>> thi= > >>> >>s question?
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask > themselves > >>> wha= > >>> >>t it is used for.
> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we > want > >>> for th= > >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am
> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the > E2E > >>> argume= > >>> >>nt(s))
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the > problem > >>> it = > >>> >>solves
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, > whichever > >>> vers= > >>> >>ion you choose
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive < >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at d= > >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > >>> typed:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon > Crowcroft > >>> wrot= > >>> >>e:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= > >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= > >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I > encourage > >>> you to= > >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer > was > >>> give= > >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether > this > >>> thr= > >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not > >>> relevant= > >>> >>...
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg > InternetWorking
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0 >>> target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> --
> >>> >>=A0>>>> http://www.content-based-science.org" > >>> target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>=A0>> >>> target=3D"_blan= > >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. > >>> See:<br><br><a hr= > >>> >>ef=3D3D" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://w= > >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> href=3D= > >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/ma= > >>> >>il-arch=3D
> >>> > >>> > >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= > >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>quote">
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span > >>> dir=3D3= > >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto: >>> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= > >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon= > >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>. > cam.ac.uk > >>> <= > >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote > >>> class=3D3D"= > >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> solid;padding-= > >>> >>left:1ex">
> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases > exist > >>> sinc= > >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery > networks, > >>> vehic= > >>> >>ular networ=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a > >>> href=3D3D= > >>> >>" > http://thing.it > >>> &quo= > >>> >>t; target=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> >>> target=3D= > >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything > we can > >>> imag= > >>> >>ine and=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not > the > >>> inters= > >>> >>ection of o=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep > 2012 > >>> 17:4= > >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: >>> pars.mutaf at gmail.= > >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" > >>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= > >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br > >>> type=3D3D"attribution&q= > >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1px > >>> #ccc s= > >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div > >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= > >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a > >>> href=3D= > >>> >>3D"mailto: >>> ">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"> >>> Jon.Crowcroft= > >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > >>> </a>&gt;</span>= > >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > >>> style=3D3D"margin:= > >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; > >>> poser sy= > >>> >>ndrome<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable > >>> solution,<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the > >>> assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= > >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for > the > >>> Intern= > >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, > >>> they di= > >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do > we > >>> want f= > >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. > >>> <br><br>= > >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote > >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= > >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > >>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= > >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > >>> argument(s))<br&= > >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it > >>> solves<br&= > >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever > version > >>> you c= > >>> >>hoose<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: >>> href=3D"mailto= > >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net > " > >>> tar= > >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>blank"> >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= > >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker > >>> typed:<= > >>> >>;br>
> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> wrote:&= > >>> >>lt;br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a > >>> href=3D3D= > >>> >>"mailto: >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= > >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> >>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= > >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>> target=3D3D"= > >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> >>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= > >>> >>ail.gmail.com"> > XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com > >>> &= > >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf > typed:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > &gt;&gt;&gt; > >>> I e= > >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > &gt;&gt;Only 1 > >>> point= > >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly > >>> relevant.<br><= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether > this > >>> thread= > >>> >> has been, or has any=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not > >>> relevant...= > >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg > >>> InternetWorking<br>= > >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D" >>> href=3D"http:= > >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" > >>> target=3D3D"_b= > >>> >>lank"> > bbiw.net > >>> <= > >>> >>;/a><b=3D
> >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>>r>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><span><font > >>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= > >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> > >>> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= > >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span > >>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D >>> >>> > >>> >>=A0>>b"><font > >>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= > >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D" http://www.content-based-s" > >>> tar= > >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> > cience.org > >>> &q= > >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> </= > >>> >>a><br><=3D
> >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>>br>
> >>> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br > >>> clear=3D3D"= > >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D" >>> href=3D"http://= > >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> >>> target=3D"_blank">on= > >>> >>tent-based-science.org" > target=3D3D"_blank"> >>> href= > >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.content-b= > >>> >>ased-scienc=3D
> >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>>e.org > >>> </a>&l= > >>> >>t;br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0cheers
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>
> >>> >>



-- >
>>> href= > >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.cont= > >>> >>ent-based-science.org

> >>> >> > >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6 > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem.
> >>
> >>One balloon can cover a very large area.
> >>
> >>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions.
> >>
> >>The point is that:
> >>
> >>MANET Doesn't work.
> >>
> >>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another > solution..= > >>.




On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at > 5:0= > >>4 PM, Jon Crowcroft < Jon.Crowcroft at c= > >>l.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > wr= > >>ote:
> >>
.8ex;border-left:1p= > >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">the resources to put enough ballons (as > many= > >> as cell towers) in
> >>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
> >>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
> >>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
> >>
> >>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
> >>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
> >>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
> >>
> >>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
> >>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
> >>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
> >>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
> >>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
> >>optimse resoruce allocation.
> >>
> >>
> >>the balloons are visible here
> >> > http://xkcd.com/1110/ >>a>
> >>if you clock and drag far enough along...
> >>

> >>
> >>In missive > <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.g= > >>mail.
> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>
> >>
=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>
=A0>>
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>=A0>>< ">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>=A0>>
> >>
=A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch > have be= > >>en studied in
> >>=A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources > they= > >> have to
> >>=A0>>> hand
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of > indonesia,= > >> japan,
> >>=A0>>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as > you d= > >>esribed
> >>
=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of > course.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster > scenario
> >>
=A0>>because they are too far away from the rest of the > network= > >>.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability > to w= > >>ork.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea > is = > >>a great
> >>
=A0>>> target for the other side
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really > rese= > >>arch,
> >>
=A0>>because they do obscure things that we do not even > know. T= > >>hey can just
> >>
=A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones. > They = > >>do not care.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>
=A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant > ballon wo= > >>uld be a big
> >>=A0>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under > brid= > >>ges.
> >>
=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use > the >>r> > >>=A0>>infrastructure
> >>=A0>>network.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> your move, sunshine.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> In missive > <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+J= > >>zTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
> >>=A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3DISO-8859-1 >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question > enou= > >>gh Jon. See:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv= > >>e/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/ma= > >>il-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon > Crowcroft<= > >>br> > >>
=A0>>> =A0>>< href=3D"mailto:jo= > >>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use > case= > >>s exist since ARPA Packet
> >>=A0>>> radio
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, > disaster = > >>recovery networks, vehicular
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some > actually = > >>in use ad deployed.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't for just one href= > >>=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, > for<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> anything
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the > unio= > >>n of all communications,
> >>=A0>>> not the
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one notion with > one t= > >>echnology.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars > Mutaf"= > >>; <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> > = > >>wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, > Jon Cr= > >>owcroft <
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.= > >>ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk > about = > >>as the
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard > even f= > >>or you" poser syndrome
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a > wor= > >>kable solution,
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of > the= > >> problem) changes the
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't change the > problem:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for the > Internet?= > >> Did we really ask this question?
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did > not as= > >>k themselves what it is used
> >>=A0>>> for.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot explain.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new thread > "What d= > >>o we want for the Internet" =A0but I
> >>
=A0>>> am
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP > (an= > >>d the E2E argument(s))
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to > change= > >> the problem it solves
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way > it = > >>still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive < href=3D"mailto:50= > >>589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, > Dave Cr= > >>ocker typed:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 > AM, Jo= > >>n Crowcroft wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive > <
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-x= > >>xaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae= > >>C2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
> >>=A0>>> Par
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf > typed:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 > >>> I = > >>encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were given)
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 > >>Only 1 = > >>pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
> >>=A0>>> relevant.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly > relev= > >>ant.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense > of = > >>whether this thread has been, or has any
> >>=A0>>> hope
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> of
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, > it = > >>was not relevant...
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>--
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg > Internet= > >>Working
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0 http://bb= > >>iw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> --
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> http://www.content-based-sci= > >>ence.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> http://www.content-based-science.org"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; > charset=3DISO-8859-1 >>> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: > quoted-printable
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon. > See:<br>&l= > >>t;br><a href=3D3D"
> >>=A0>>> target=3D"_blank">http:= > >>//www.ietf.org/=3D
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quo= > >>t;>
> >>=A0>>> target=3D"_bla= > >>nk">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><= > >>;br><br><br><br><div
> >>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>quote">
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 > AM, Jo= > >>n Crowcroft <span
> >>
=A0>>> > dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a = > >>hr=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto: jon.crowcr= > >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl > =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>. target=3D"_blank">= > >>cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> > wrote:<br><blockquote= > >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> >>=A0>>> style=3D
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1= > >>px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many > use = > >>cases exist since ARPA Packet
> >>=A0>>> rad=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster > recovery= > >> networks, vehicular
> >>
=A0>>> networ=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad > deployed.</p>= > >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just > one= > >> <a href=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://= > >>thing.it"
> >>=A0>>> target=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> http://thi= > >>ng.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for > anyt= > >>hing we can
> >>=A0>>> imagine and=3D
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union of all > communic= > >>ations, not the intersection
> >>
=A0>>> of o=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>><div > class=3D3D"gmail_quote"&= > >>gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;
> >>
=A0>>> &lt=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: href=3D"mailto:p= > >>ars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail > =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br > type=3D3D&qu= > >>ot;attribution"><blockquote
> >>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border= > >>-left:1px #ccc
> >>=A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div > class=3D3D&quo= > >>t;gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon
> >>
=A0>>> Cro=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span > dir=3D3D"ltr">&= > >>lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
> >>=A0>>> ">Jon.Crowcroft= > >>@cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"> href=3D"mail= > >>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&= > >>;gt;</span>
> >>=A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>kquote > class=3D3D"gmail_quote" s= > >>tyle=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> >>
=A0>>> #cc=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk about as > the<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for > you&am= > >>p;quot; poser syndrome<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you offer a > workable s= > >>olution,<br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem) > cha= > >>nges the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the > assumptions)<br></block= > >>quote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t
> >>=A0>>> chang=3D
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What > do = > >>we want for the Internet? Did we really
> >>=A0>>> ask t=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET > for = > >>example, they did not ask
> >>=A0>>> themselves wh=3D
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They > cannot= > >> explain. <br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a new thread > &= > >>quot;What do we want for the
> >>=A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. > <= > >>;br><br>Cheers,
> >>
=A0>>> > <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br></div><blockquote > class=3D3D"= > >>;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> >>=A0>>> 0.8e=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding= > >>-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and > the E= > >>2E argument(s))<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to change the > problem = > >>it solves<br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still > doesn&#3= > >>9;t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a > href=3D3D"mailto:<= > >>a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net > ">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.n= > >>et"
> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>blank"> 50589DCC.203080= > >>8 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, > Dave C= > >>rocker typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div><br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On > 9/18/2= > >>012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive > &lt= > >>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
> >>=A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BV= > >>q2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > "<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1t= > >>FcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mai= > >>l.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
> >>=A0>>> Par<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf > typed:<= > >>br>
> >>
=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br> >>> > >>
=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant
> >>=A0>>> prior=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were > given)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > &gt;&= > >>;gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
> >>=A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> is not relevant.<br>
> >>
=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br> >>> > >>
=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of > whe= > >>ther this thread has been, or has
> >>=A0>>> any=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it > was= > >> not relevant...<br>
> >>
=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--&l= > >>t;br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave > Crocker<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg > InternetW= > >>orking<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a > href=3D3D"= > >>http://bbiw.net" > tar= > >>get=3D3D"_blank"> target=3D"_blank"= > >>>bbiw.net
> >> > >>=A0>>> </a><b=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br> >>> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><span><font > color=3D3D"#888888&quo= > >>t;><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>></font></span></blockquote><= > >>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><span
> >>=A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>b"><font > color=3D3D"#888888"= > >>;><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"
> >>=A0>>> target=3D"_blank">ht= > >>tp://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target=3D"_blank">= > >>cience.org" target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www= > >>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-scie= > >>nce.org
> >> > >>=A0>>> </a><br><=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>></font></span></blockquote><= > >>;/div>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>></blockquote></div><br><br = > >>clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a > href=3D3D" >>r> > >>=A0>>> http://www.c > = > >>=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> targ= > >>et=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org" > target=3D3D"_blank&qu= > >>ot;>
> >>=A0>>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-scienc=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> > e.org= > >></a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0cheers
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>=A0>>
> >>
=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On > Wed,= > >> Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =3D
> >>
=A0>><span > dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;&l= > >>t;a href=3D3D"mailto: ">Jon= > >>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.ca= > >>m.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> > wrot= > >>e:<br><blockquote=3D
> >>
=A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin:= > >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=3D
> >>=A0>>d;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been > studied = > >>in<br>
> >>=A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with resources > they ha= > >>ve to<br>
> >>=A0>>hand<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, > japa= > >>n,<br>
> >>=A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you > desrib= > >>ed<br>
> >>=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing > the = > >>balloons is not the users&#39; task=3D
> >>=A0>> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross > wil= > >>l prepare them.<br><br>=3D
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote > class=3D3D&quo= > >>t;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
> > >>
=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br><br&g= > >>t;MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=3D
> >>=A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from > the= > >> rest of the netw=3D
> >>=A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it > has a = > >>very low probability to=3D
> >>
=A0>> work.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote > class=3D3D"gmail_= > >>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
> >>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu= > >>ot;>
> >>
=A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon > idea is= > >> a great<br>
> >>
=A0>>target for the other > side<br></blockq= > >>uote><div><br><br>I personally do not =3D
> >>=A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really > research,<br>becau= > >>se they do obscur=3D
> >>=A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can just > <br>use t= > >>he most expensive=3D
> >>=A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
> >>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote > class=3D3D"gmail_= > >>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
> >>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu= > >>ot;>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>
=A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon > would b= > >>e a big<br>
> >>=A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under > bridges.&= > >>lt;br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br= > >>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=3D
> >>=A0>> Just use the infrastructure > <br>network.<br><br&= > >>gt;=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D
> >>
=A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0p= > >>t 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>your move, sunshine.<br>
> > >>=A0>><br></blockquote><div></div><div>&= > >>lt;/div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D
> >>
=A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px > sol= > >>id rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D
> >>
=A0>>ing-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>In missive > &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+Jz= > >>Tx6F5g at mail.gma=3D
> >>=A0>>il.<br>
> >>=A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br> >>> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3D3DISO-8= > >>859-1<br>
> >>
=A0>><div><div > class=3D3D"h5">=3DA0&g= > >>t;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. > See:<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a > href=3D3D" >>ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D" > target=3D"= > >>_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D >
> >>=A0>>g12602.html" target=3D3D"_blank"> href=3D"ht= > >>tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www= > >>.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D
> >>=A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon > Crowc= > >>roft<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a > href=3D3D&q= > >>uot;mailto: ">jon.crowcroft at cl.c= > >>am.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=3D
> >>=A0>> > cl.cam.ac.uk >>a></a>&gt;wrote:<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. > Many= > >> use cases exist since AR=3D
> >>=A0>>PA Packet radio<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, > disast= > >>er recovery networks, veh=3D
> >>=A0>>icular<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in > use ad= > >> deployed.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet > isn= > >>&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D" targe= > >>t=3D"_blank">http://thing=3D
> >>
=A0>>.it" target=3D3D"_blank"> href=3D"http= > >>://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by > definition, fo= > >>r anything<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and > realize...it is= > >> the union of all communi=3D
> >>=A0>>cations, not the<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion > with on= > >>e technology.<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep > 2012 1= > >>7:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>"mailto: ">pars.mutaf@= > >>gmail.com"> ">pars.mutaf at g= > >>mail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 > at 7:= > >>17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > <a hr= > >>ef=3D3D"mailto: ">Jon.Crowc= > >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=3D
> >>
=A0>>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk > = > >></a>&gt; wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what > we us= > >>ed to talk about as the<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my > probl= > >>em is too hard even for you&quot; pos=3D
> >>=A0>>er syndrome<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, > wheneve= > >>r you offer a workable solution,<=3D
> >>=A0>>br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of > the = > >>problem) changes the<br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>problem (or the assumptions)<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I > didn&#39;t = > >>change the problem:<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for > the In= > >>ternet? Did we really ask thi=3D
> >>=A0>>s question?<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for > example, th= > >>ey did not ask themselves wha=3D
> >>=A0>>t it is used for.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot > explain.<br= > >>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new > thread= > >> &quot;What do we want for th=3D
> >>=A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I am<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should > do th= > >>is.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the > nice th= > >>ings about IP (and the E2E argume=3D
> >>=A0>>nt(s))<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is > real= > >>ly hard to change the problem it =3D
> >>
=A0>>solves<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it > still = > >>doesn&#39;t solve, whichever vers=3D
> >>=A0>>ion you choose<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, > maybe n= > >>ot IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive > &lt= > >>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: ">50589DCC= > >>.2030808 at d=3D
> >>
=A0>> target=3D"_blank">crocker.n= > >>et"> ">50589DCC.2= > >>030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker > typed:<br> >>> > >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&= > >>lt;br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=3D
> >>=A0>>e:<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt= > >>;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >><a href=3D3D"mailto: CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i= > >>DwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=3D
> >>=A0>> ">2BV2X= > >>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i= > >>DwO+V2X=3D
> >>=A0>> ">V1tFcP5PgT+V= > >>q2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, Par<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt= > >>;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to=3D
> >>=A0>> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were > give= > >>n)<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was give=3D
> >>
=A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;in the broader sense of whether this thr=3D
> >>=A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > of<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant=3D
> >>=A0>>...<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;d/<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt;--<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt;&= > >>gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0&gt= > >>;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D" http://bbiw.net"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D
> >>
=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> tar= > >>get=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > =3DA0cheers<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > =3DA0jon<= > >>br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a > href=3D3D" >>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.co= > >>ntent-based-science.org" target=3D
> >>
=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> http://w= > >>ww.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-sc= > >>ience.org</a><br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a > href=3D3D" >>ref=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.c= > >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blan=3D
> >>=A0>>k"> targ= > >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > </a><br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b= > >>204ca091b8d<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; > charset=3D3DISO-88= > >>59-1<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: > quoted-printable= > >><br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. > See:&lt= > >>;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=3D
> >>
=A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D" hre= > >>f=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D= > >>" target=3D3D"_blank"> target=3D"= > >>_blank">http://w=3D
> >> > >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">ww.ietf.o= > >>rg/=3D3D</a><br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.htm= > >>l&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>" target=3D"_= > >>blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D" > target=3D3D"_blank= > >>"> > http://ww= > >>w.ietf.org/ma=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;= > >>/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
> >>=A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div > class=3D3D3D&am= > >>p;quot;gmail_=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, > Jon= > >> Crowcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&a= > >>mp;lt;a hr=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a > href=3D3D&q= > >>uot;mailto: ">jon.crowcroft at cl.c= > >>am.ac.uk=3D
> >>
=A0>>"> ">jo= > >>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; > target=3D3D3D&quot;_bl= > >>ank&quot;&gt;jon=3D
> >>=A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D3D" http://cam= > >>.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk" > target=3D3D"_blan= > >>k">cam.ac.uk > <= > >>/a>&lt=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; > wrote:&lt;br&am= > >>p;gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot=3D
> >>=A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-l= > >>eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-=3D
> >>=A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET > example, su= > >>re. Many use cases exist sinc=3D
> >>
=A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, > disast= > >>er recovery networks, vehic=3D
> >>=A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad > deployed.&= > >>lt;/p&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet > isn&amp;#= > >>39;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D
> >>
=A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D" href=3D"http= > >>://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it" > target=3D3D"_= > >>blank"> > http://thing.i= > >>t</a>&quo=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>t; target=3D3D<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;&l= > >>t;a href=3D3D" > http://thi= > >>ng.it" target=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>"_blank"> target=3D"_bla= > >>nk">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for > anythin= > >>g we can imag=3D
> >>=A0>>ine and=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all > com= > >>munications, not the inters=3D
> >>
=A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one > technology.&lt;/p&am= > >>p;gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div > class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quo= > >>te&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=3D
> >>=A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; > &amp;lt=3D3D<br= > >>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto: > <= > >>a href=3D3D"mailto: .">pars.mutaf at gma= > >>il.=3D
> >>=A0>>com"> ">pars.mutaf@= > >>gmail.com</a>&quot; > target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&a= > >>mp;gt;pars.m=3D
> >>
=A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; > wrote:&a= > >>mp;lt;br type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D
> >>=A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote > class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quot= > >>=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot; > style=3D3D3D&quot;mar= > >>gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt= > >>;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D
> >>=A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span > dir=3D3D3D&qu= > >>ot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D
> >>
=A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a > href=3D3D"mailto= > >>: > Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D
> >>=A0>> > cl.cam.ac.uk >>a></a>&quot; =3D3D<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&= > >>;gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: ">Jon.Crowcr= > >>oft=3D
> >>
=A0>>@ target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.= > >>ac.uk"> ">Jon.Crowcr= > >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&a= > >>mp;gt=3D
> >> > >>
=A0>>; > wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote > class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&am= > >>p;quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D
> >>=A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c > solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&am= > >>p;gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as > the&a= > >>mp;lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard > even f= > >>or you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D
> >>=A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br&= > >>gt;
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a > worka= > >>ble solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes > the&= > >>lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the > assumptions)&lt;br&= > >>gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=3D
> >>
=A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I > didn&amp;#3= > >>9;t chang=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the > problem:&lt;br&gt;&= > >>lt;br&gt;What do we want for the Intern=3D
> >>
=A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his > question?&lt;br&gt;&l= > >>t;br&gt;Take MANET for example, they di=3D
> >>
=A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot > explai= > >>n. &lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new > threa= > >>d &amp;quot;What do we want f=3D
> >>
=A0>>or the > Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br> >>r> > >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure if I > should= > >> do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
> >>
=A0>>;Cheers, > &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&= > >>gt;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;block= > >>quote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D
> >>=A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8e=3D3D<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);pa= > >>dding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D
> >>=A0>>gt;<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and > the E2= > >>E argument(s))&lt;br&=3D
> >>=A0>>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the > pro= > >>blem it solves&lt;br&=3D
> >>=A0>>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t > solve= > >>, whichever version you c=3D
> >>=A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not > IPv5:)&lt;br&g= > >>t;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a > href=3D3D3= > >>D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto=3D
> >>=A0>>: ">50589DCC.20308= > >>08 at dcrocker.net"> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.ne= > >>t">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&quot; tar=3D
> >>
=A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a > href=3D3D"= > >>;mailto: ">50589DCC.2030808 at d= > >>crocker.net">=3D
> >>
=A0>> ">50589DCC.= > >>2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave > Croc= > >>ker typed:&lt=3D
> >>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&= > >>lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= > >>mp;gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On > 9/18/2012= > >> 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&=3D
> >>=A0>>lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= > >> In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D
> >>
=A0>>&quot;mailto:<a > href=3D3D"mailto:<= > >>a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM > ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= > >>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D
> >>=A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: href=3D"mail= > >>to:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c > ">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP= > >>5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=3D
> >>=A0>>om"> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@= > >>mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > </a>&= > >>amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&quot=3D
> >>=A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: href=3D"mail= > >>to:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m > ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw= > >>O%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=3D
> >>=A0>> > ail.gmail.com= > >>"> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2= > >>A at mail.gmail.com"> > XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com >>a></a>&=3D
> >> > >>
=A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, > Par&lt;br&gt;<br>= > >>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= > >> s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= > >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= > >> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D
> >>
=A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant > prior=3D3D&l= > >>t;br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were > given)&= > >>lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= > >> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D
> >>
=A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), > it=3D3D<br= > >>>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not > relevant.&lt;br&gt;&l= > >>t;br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= > >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;= > >> it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D
> >>=A0>>br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= > >>mp;gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= > >>mp;gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the > broad= > >>er sense of whether this thread=3D
> >>
=A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br>
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope > of&lt;br&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, > const= > >>ructive, it was not relevant...=3D
> >>=A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= > >>mp;gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br= > >>&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= > >>mp;gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br= > >>&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; > =3D3DA0Dave= > >> Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; > =3D3DA0Bran= > >>denburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; > =3D3DA0&= > >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http:=3D
> >>
=A0>>// target=3D"_blank= > >>">bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank"> http://bbi= > >>w.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot; > target=3D3= > >>D3D&quot;_b=3D
> >> > >>
=A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D" href=3D"http= > >>://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" > target=3D3D"_= > >>blank">bbiw.net > &l= > >>t;/a>&lt=3D
> >> > >>
=A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
> >>
class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&= > >>lt;br>
> > >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&= > >>gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font > color=3D3D= > >>3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 > =3D3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&= > >>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=3D
> >>=A0>>gt;&lt;br > clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt= > >>;span class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font > color=3D3D3= > >>D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=3D
> >>
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> >>
=A0>>get=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.conten= > >>t-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s > </a>=3D3D&= > >>lt;br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" http://cien= > >>ce.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org" > target=3D3D"_bla= > >>nk">cience.org > &= > >>lt;/a>&q=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>uot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a > href= > >>=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://= > >>www.content-based-s=3D
> >>=A0>>cience.org > &q= > >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.content-based-s= > >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > </= > >>a>&lt;/=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&= > >>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&= > >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D
> >>=A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- > &lt;br&gt;&= > >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http://=3D
> >>
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> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" href=3D"http:= > >>//ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://ontent-based-science.o= > >>rg" target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">tent= > >>-based-science.org</a>&quot; > target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&am= > >>p;quot;&gt;<a href=3D
> >>=A0>>=3D3D" target=3D= > >>"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc" > target=3D3D"_blank&= > >>quot;> > http://www.cont= > >>ent-b=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" http://e.or= > >>g" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org" > target=3D3D"_blank"&g= > >>t;e.org > </a>&lt;/a&= > >>amp;gt;&l=3D
> >> > >>
class=3D"h5">=A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&a= > >>mp;gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>><span class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><font > color=3D3D&quo= > >>t;#888888"><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= > >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a > href=3D= > >>
> >>=A0>>=3D3D" targ= > >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org" > target=3D3D&qu= > >>ot;_blank"> > http://www= > >>.cont=3D
> >> > >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">ent-b= > >>ased-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
> >>
> >>=A0cheers
> >>
> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>
> >>



--
href=3D"= > >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-= > >>based-science.org

> >> > >>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/1f3b4354/attachment-0001.html From chk at pobox.com Wed Sep 19 08:42:21 2012 From: chk at pobox.com (Harald Koch) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:42:21 -0400 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: The whole balloon vs. MANET thing was discussed to death in the email archive that was linked. Can we _not_ rehash it here, please? -- Harald -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/b41ab417/attachment.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 08:41:53 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 16:41:53 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity i dont. lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days... coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage), it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with the actual human movement/location patterns in mind.... something mon golfier frere hasn't being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is where and what resources are still working would be good i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters) In missive , John Day typed: >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power. >> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters. >> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. >>> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive. >>> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to >>>optimse resoruce allocation. >>> >>> >>>the balloons are visible here >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/ >>>if you clock and drag far enough along... >>> >>> >>>In missive >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to >>> >>> hand >>> >>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. >>> >> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. >>> >>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. >>> >> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great >>> >>> target for the other side >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the >>> >>infrastructure >>> >>network. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> your move, sunshine. >>> >>> >>> >>> In missive >>>>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet >>> >>> radio >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for >>> >>> anything >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, >>> >>> not the >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used >>> >>> for. >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>>Internet" but I >>> >>> am >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>>> Pars >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < >>> >>> >>>>> >>>CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> >>> Par >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not >>> >>> relevant. >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, >>>or has any >>> >>> hope >>> >>> >>>>> of >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/ >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>>>> >>-- >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>-- >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/= >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>> >>> class=3D"gmail_= >>> >>> >>quote"> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> >>> style= >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since >>>ARPA Packet >>> >>> rad= >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular >>> >>> networ= >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

>>> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >> >>> target= >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we can >>> >>> imagine and= >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection >>> >>> of o= >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars >>>Mutaf" >>> >>> <= >>> >>> >>;>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= >>> >>> >>.com> wrote:
>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at >>>7:17 PM, Jon >>> >>> Cro= >>> >>> >>wcroft <>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >>>.8ex;border-left:1px >>> >>> #cc= >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I didn't >>> >>> chang= >>> >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did we really >>> >>> ask t= >>> >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>> >>> themselves wh= >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>> >>> Internet"= >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, >>> >>>
Pars
=A0<= >>> >>> >>br>
>> >>> 0.8e= >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>In missive <>> >>> target=3D"_= >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>> >>> >>

>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> >>> Par
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant >>> >>> prior= >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon >>> >>> Crowcroft), it= >>> >>> >> is not relevant.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has >>>been, or has >>> >>> any= >>> >>> >> hope of
>>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>d/
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0bbiw.net >>> >>> >> >>> >>r> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
=A0cheers
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>


>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ= >>> >>> >>b">
--
>> >>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>>
<= >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>


--
>> >>> http://www.c= >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= >>> >>> >>e.org

>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>-- >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >> >>> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon >>>Crowcroft = >>> >><>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>>wrote:
>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px >>>#ccc soli= >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to
>>> >>hand
>>> >>
>>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>>> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the >>>users' task= >>> >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare >>>them.

= >>> >>=A0
>>0pt 0pt 0.8e= >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>> >>
>>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>> >>


MANET may not work for isolated >>>users in a di= >>> >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest >>>of the netw= >>> >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low >>>probability to= >>> >> work.
>>> >>
=A0
>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>>> >>target for the other side


I >>>personally do not = >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they >>>do obscur= >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most >>>expensive= >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care.
>>> >>
=A0
>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>
>>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>> >>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily >>>dangerous*.= >>> >> Just use the infrastructure >>>
network.

=A0
>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >> >>> >>your move, sunshine.
>>> >>
>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st= >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd= >>> >>ing-left:1ex"> >>> >>In missive >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= >>> >>il.
>>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>
=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= >>> >>g12602.html" >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>=A0>><>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@= >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases >exist since AR= >>> >>PA Packet radio
>>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery >>>networks, veh= >>> >>icular
>>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >>href=3D"http://thing= >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything
>>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of >>>all communi= >>> >>cations, not the
>>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" >>><>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>> >>=A0>>>> >>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc= >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for >>>you" pos= >>> >>er syndrome
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable >>>solution,<= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we >>>really ask thi= >>> >>s question?
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>>themselves wha= >>> >>t it is used for.
>>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we >>>want for th= >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am
>>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
>>> >>=A0>>>> Pars
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the >>>E2E argume= >>> >>nt(s))
>>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the >>>problem it = >>> >>solves
>>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, >>>whichever vers= >>> >>ion you choose
>>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d= >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon >>>Crowcroft wrot= >>> >>e:
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
>>> >>=A0>>>>> >>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I >>>encourage you to= >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many
>>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 >>>pointer was give= >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of >>>whether this thr= >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope
>>> >>=A0>>>>> of
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was >>>not relevant= >>> >>...
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>> --
>>> >>=A0>>>> >>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>>>>target=3D"_blan= >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. >>>See:<br><br><a hr= >>> >>ef=3D3D">>target=3D"_blank">http://w= >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
>>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">>>href=3D= >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= >>> >>il-arch=3D
>>> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>> >>=A0>>quote">
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>><span dir=3D3= >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
>>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon= >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>> >>=A0>>.>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk<= >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote >>>class=3D3D"= >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>>solid;padding-= >>> >>left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases >>>exist sinc= >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
>>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery >>>networks, vehic= >>> >>ular networ=3D
>>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a >>>href=3D3D= >>> >>">>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it&quo= >>> >>t; target=3D
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>>target=3D= >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything >>>we can imag= >>> >>ine and=3D
>>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not >>>the inters= >>> >>ection of o=3D
>>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep >>>2012 17:4= >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.= >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D
>>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q= >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br><div >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
>>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= >>> >>3D"mailto:>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@= >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft= >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>= >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >>>style=3D3D"margin:= >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for >>>you&quot; poser sy= >>> >>ndrome<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>problem (or the >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
>>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for >>>the Intern= >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
>>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for >>>example, they di= >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
>>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do >>>we want f= >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. >>><br><br>= >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E >>>argument(s))<br&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it >>>solves<br&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever >>>version you c= >>> >>hoose<br>
>>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>>href=3D"mailto= >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" >>>tar= >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D
>>> >>=A0>>blank">>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker >>>typed:<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon >>>Crowcroft wrote:&= >>> >>lt;br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a >>>href=3D3D= >>> >>"mailto:>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>> >>=A0>>>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>>target=3D3D"= >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= >>> >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com&= >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e= >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
>>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point= >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
>>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly >>>relevant.<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether >>>this thread= >>> >> has been, or has any=3D
>>> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not >>>relevant...= >>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg >>>InternetWorking<br>= >>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">>href=3D"http:= >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" >>>target=3D3D"_b= >>> >>lank">>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net<= >>> >>;/a><b=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>r>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>> >>=A0>><span><font >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= >>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D">>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar= >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org&q= >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>cience.org" >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>> >>a><br><=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>br>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br >>>clear=3D3D"= >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D">>href=3D"http://= >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>> >>=A0>>>>target=3D"_blank">on= >>> >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= >>> >>ased-scienc=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&l= >>> >>t;br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0cheers
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>
>>> >>



--
>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>> >>ent-based-science.org

>>> >> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >> cheers jon From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 08:45:21 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:45:21 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity > > i dont. > > lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones > running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are > and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days... > > coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and > landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see > for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage), > it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with > the actual human movement/location patterns in mind.... > You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. > > something mon golfier frere hasn't > > being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is > where and what resources are still working would be good > > i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters > (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters) > > > In missive , John Day typed: > > >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big > >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power. > >> > >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters. > >> > >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in > >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply > >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, > >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. > >>> > >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters > >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for > >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive. > >>> > >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also > >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness > >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find > >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide > >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to > >>>optimse resoruce allocation. > >>> > >>> > >>>the balloons are visible here > >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/ > >>>if you clock and drag far enough along... > >>> > >>> > >>>In missive > >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied > in > >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to > >>> >>> hand > >>> >>> > >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, > japan, > >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you > desribed > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. > >>> >> > >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario > >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. > >>> >> > >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to > work. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a > great > >>> >>> target for the other side > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really > research, > >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can > just > >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big > >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the > >>> >>infrastructure > >>> >>network. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> your move, sunshine. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> In missive > >>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>> >>wrote: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since > ARPA Packet > >>> >>> radio > >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > vehicular > >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by > definition, for > >>> >>> anything > >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > communications, > >>> >>> not the > >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. > >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" > wrote: > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the > >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the > >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this > question? > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what > it is used > >>> >>> for. > >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > >>>Internet" but I > >>> >>> am > >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, > >>> >>> >>>> Pars > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) > >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves > >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you > choose > >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed: > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>>CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> >>> Par > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior > work (many > >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it > is not > >>> >>> relevant. > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, > >>>or has any > >>> >>> hope > >>> >>> >>>>> of > >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/ > >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>>>> >>-- > >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker > >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> cheers > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> jon > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> -- > >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>-- > >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/= > >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> > >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= > >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_= > >>> >>> >>quote"> > >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr">< >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= > >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
class=3D"gmail_quote" > >>> >>> style= > >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since > >>>ARPA Packet > >>> >>> rad= > >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > vehicular > >>> >>> networ= > >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

> >>> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one http://thing.it" > >>> >>> target= > >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we > can > >>> >>> imagine and= > >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > intersection > >>> >>> of o= > >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars > >>>Mutaf" > >>> >>> <= > >>> >>> >>; >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= > >>> >>> >>.com> wrote:
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at > >>>7:17 PM, Jon > >>> >>> Cro= > >>> >>> >>wcroft < >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = > >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > >>>.8ex;border-left:1px > >>> >>> #cc= > >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser > syndrome
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I > didn't > >>> >>> chang= > >>> >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did > we really > >>> >>> ask t= > >>> >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask > >>> >>> themselves wh= > >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > >>> >>> Internet"= > >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, > >>> >>>
Pars
=A0<= > >>> >>> >>br>
style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > >>> >>> 0.8e= > >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you > choose
> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>In missive < 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" > >>> >>> target=3D"_= > >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed:
> >>> >>> >>

> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive < >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= > >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= > >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com > >, > >>> >>> Par
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the > relevant > >>> >>> prior= > >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon > >>> >>> Crowcroft), it= > >>> >>> >> is not relevant.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has > >>>been, or has > >>> >>> any= > >>> >>> >> hope of
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0 > bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>r> > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
=A0cheers
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>


>>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ= > >>> >>> >>b">
--
>>> >>> http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>>
<= > >>> >>> >>br> > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>


--
href=3D" > >>> >>> http://www.c= > >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= > >>> >>> >>e.org

> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- > >>> >>> > >>> >>> cheers > >>> >>> > >>> >>> jon > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >> > >>> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon > >>>Crowcroft = > >>> >>< target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>>wrote:
>>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > >>>#ccc soli= > >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied > in
> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have > to
> >>> >>hand
> >>> >>
> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, > japan,
> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you > desribed
> >>> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the > >>>users' task= > >>> >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare > >>>them.

= > >>> >>=A0
>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e= > >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>> >>


MANET may not work for isolated > >>>users in a di= > >>> >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest > >>>of the netw= > >>> >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low > >>>probability to= > >>> >> work.
> >>> >>
=A0
>>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = > >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a > great
> >>> >>target for the other side


I > >>>personally do not = > >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they > >>>do obscur= > >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most > >>>expensive= > >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>> >>
=A0
>>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = > >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>
> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a > big
> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
> >>> >>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily > >>>dangerous*.= > >>> >> Just use the infrastructure > >>>
network.

=A0
>>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= > >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>your move, sunshine.
> >>> >>
>>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st= > >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd= > >>> >>ing-left:1ex"> > >>> >>In missive > >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= > >>> >>il.
> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>> >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= > >>> >>g12602.html" > >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= > >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>=A0>>< >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@= > >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases > >exist since AR= > >>> >>PA Packet radio
> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery > >>>networks, veh= > >>> >>icular
> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >>>href=3D"http://thing= > >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for > anything
> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of > >>>all communi= > >>> >>cations, not the
> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" > >>>< >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> > wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft > <
> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc= > >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as > the
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for > >>>you" pos= > >>> >>er syndrome
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable > >>>solution,<= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we > >>>really ask thi= > >>> >>s question?
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask > >>>themselves wha= > >>> >>t it is used for.
> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we > >>>want for th= > >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am
> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the > >>>E2E argume= > >>> >>nt(s))
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the > >>>problem it = > >>> >>solves
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, > >>>whichever vers= > >>> >>ion you choose
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive < >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d= > >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker > typed:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon > >>>Crowcroft wrot= > >>> >>e:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= > >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= > >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I > >>>encourage you to= > >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 > >>>pointer was give= > >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of > >>>whether this thr= > >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was > >>>not relevant= > >>> >>...
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg > InternetWorking
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0 target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> --
> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target= > >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>=A0>> >>>target=3D"_blan= > >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. > >>>See:<br><br><a hr= > >>> >>ef=3D3D" >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w= > >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>>href=3D= > >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" > >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= > >>> >>il-arch=3D
> >>> > >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= > >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>quote">
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>><span dir=3D3= > >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto: >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= > >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon= > >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>. >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk<= > >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote > >>>class=3D3D"= > >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>>solid;padding-= > >>> >>left:1ex">
> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases > >>>exist sinc= > >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery > >>>networks, vehic= > >>> >>ular networ=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a > >>>href=3D3D= > >>> >>" >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it&quo= > >>> >>t; target=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> >>>target=3D= > >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything > >>>we can imag= > >>> >>ine and=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not > >>>the inters= > >>> >>ection of o=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep > >>>2012 17:4= > >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.= > >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" > >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= > >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br > >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q= > >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 > >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= > >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div > >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= > >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span > >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= > >>> >>3D"mailto: >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft= > >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&gt;</span>= > >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > >>>style=3D3D"margin:= > >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for > >>>you&quot; poser sy= > >>> >>ndrome<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable > solution,<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the > >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= > >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for > >>>the Intern= > >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for > >>>example, they di= > >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do > >>>we want f= > >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. > >>><br><br>= > >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote > >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= > >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= > >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > >>>argument(s))<br&= > >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it > >>>solves<br&= > >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever > >>>version you c= > >>> >>hoose<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: >>>href=3D"mailto= > >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net > " > >>>tar= > >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>blank"> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= > >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker > >>>typed:<= > >>> >>;br>
> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon > >>>Crowcroft wrote:&= > >>> >>lt;br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a > >>>href=3D3D= > >>> >>"mailto: >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= > >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= > >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>>target=3D3D"= > >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= > >>> >>ail.gmail.com"> > XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com&= > >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf > typed:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e= > >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point= > >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly > >>>relevant.<br><= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether > >>>this thread= > >>> >> has been, or has any=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not > >>>relevant...= > >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg > >>>InternetWorking<br>= > >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D" >>>href=3D"http:= > >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" > >>>target=3D3D"_b= > >>> >>lank"> >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net<= > >>> >>;/a><b=3D
> >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>>r>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><span><font > >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= > >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= > >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span > >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D >>> >>> > >>> >>=A0>>b"><font > >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= > >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D" >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar= > >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org&q= > >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>cience.org" > >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= > >>> >>a><br><=3D
> >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>>br>
> >>> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br > >>>clear=3D3D"= > >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D" >>>href=3D"http://= > >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
> >>> >>=A0>> >>>target=3D"_blank">on= > >>> >>tent-based-science.org" > target=3D3D"_blank"> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" > >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= > >>> >>ased-scienc=3D
> >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>> >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&l= > >>> >>t;br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0cheers
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>
> >>> >>



-- >
>>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" > >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= > >>> >>ent-based-science.org

> >>> >> > >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >> > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/2df62725/attachment-0001.html From jtw at isi.edu Wed Sep 19 09:19:27 2012 From: jtw at isi.edu (John Wroclawski) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 09:19:27 -0700 Subject: [e2e] 72 hours In-Reply-To: <5059E5DF.5050504@dcrocker.net> References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> <5059E5DF.5050504@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <716B08B3-F77E-46B8-A992-0582465A1B64@isi.edu> On Sep 19, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 9/19/2012 7:04 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters >> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for >> the 3 days before more resources arrive. > > I've been spending time in my local Red Cross chapter for awhile. > > FWIW, while 72 hours is the official number, folks teaching the Red Cross classes almost invariably advise doing preparation for 5-7 days. Given a liter of water per person per day, that's an example of a very large difference in planning and provisioning. Another resource for folks interested in this area at a fairly pragmatic level is http://faculty.nps.edu/dl/HFN/ From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 09:34:37 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:34:37 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: the goal is to have less people die - our s/w works in existing phones - having it deploy will cost zero (unlike ballons) and saving more than zero lives is quite a good achievement for somethign costing zero, but it also delivers a situational awareness to the emergency services when they eventually arrive meanwhile, back on discrete IP, the problem you have to solve when you have a set of domains running different protocols, is a system tp provide routing between translation points - this is something we did before the internet was called the internet - back in 1980, there were several different protocol families in the world - e.g. tthe public and academic packet switched networks running the X.25 network ayer protocol, networks running DECNET, nets running SNA and so on - so we design protocoll translaters - and we deisnged a name based scheme to provide mapping from application layer down to transport, to beable to name the "nexthop" in the multiprotocol route (the ideas in this, Yellow Book Transport Service and name based route construction is visible in the two ideas I mentioned, Paul Francis' IPNL and Ran Atkinson's work on ILNP - I encourage you to have a look at those, as they speak to the original document you circulated...and fill in a lot of details on how to build such a system. In missive , Pars Mutaf typed: >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft >>wrote: >> >>> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity >>> >>> i dont. >>> >>> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones >>> running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are >>> and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days... >>> >>> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and >>> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see >>> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage), >>> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with >>> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind.... >>> >> >> >>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot >>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. >> >> >> >>> >>> something mon golfier frere hasn't >>> >>> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is >>> where and what resources are still working would be good >>> >>> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters >>> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters) >>> >>> >>> In missive , John Day typed: >>> >>> >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big >>> >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power. >>> >> >>> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters. >>> >> >>> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in >>> >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply >>> >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, >>> >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. >>> >>> >>> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters >>> >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for >>> >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive. >>> >>> >>> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also >>> >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness >>> >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find >>> >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide >>> >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to >>> >>>optimse resoruce allocation. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>the balloons are visible here >>> >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/ >>> >>>if you clock and drag far enough along... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>In missive >>> >> >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>wrote: >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied >>> in >>> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to >>> >>> >>> hand >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, >>> japan, >>> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you >>> desribed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario >>> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to >>> work. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a >>> great >>> >>> >>> target for the other side >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really >>> research, >>> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can >>> just >>> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big >>> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the >>> >>> >>infrastructure >>> >>> >>network. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> your move, sunshine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In missive >>> >>>>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>> >>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since >>> ARPA Packet >>> >>> >>> radio >>> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, >>> vehicular >>> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by >>> definition, for >>> >>> >>> anything >>> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all >>> communications, >>> >>> >>> not the >>> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >>> >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this >>> question? >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what >>> it is used >>> >>> >>> for. >>> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>> >>>Internet" but I >>> >>> >>> am >>> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> >>>> Pars >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >>> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >>> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you >>> choose >>> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker >>> typed: >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> >>> >>> Par >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior >>> work (many >>> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it >>> is not >>> >>> >>> relevant. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, >>> >>>or has any >>> >>> >>> hope >>> >>> >>> >>>>> of >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/ >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>-- >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/= >>> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>> >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_= >>> >>> >>> >>quote"> >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><>> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= >>> >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> class=3D"gmail_quote" >>> >>> >>> style= >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since >>> >>>ARPA Packet >>> >>> >>> rad= >>> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, >>> vehicular >>> >>> >>> networ= >>> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

>>> >>> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >> http://thing.it" >>> >>> >>> target= >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for anything we >>> can >>> >>> >>> imagine and= >>> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the >>> intersection >>> >>> >>> of o= >>> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars >>> >>>Mutaf" >>> >>> >>> <= >>> >>> >>> >>;>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= >>> >>> >>> >>.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >>> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at >>> >>>7:17 PM, Jon >>> >>> >>> Cro= >>> >>> >>> >>wcroft <>> >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = >>> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px >>> >>> >>> #cc= >>> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser >>> syndrome
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No I >>> didn't >>> >>> >>> chang= >>> >>> >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? Did >>> we really >>> >>> >>> ask t= >>> >>> >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>> >>> >>> themselves wh= >>> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>> >>> >>> Internet"= >>> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.

Cheers, >>> >>> >>>
Pars
=A0<= >>> >>> >>> >>br>
>> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >>> >>> >>> 0.8e= >>> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you >>> choose
>>> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>In missive <>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_= >>> >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker >>> typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>

>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <>> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>> >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= >>> >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> >, >>> >>> >>> Par
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the >>> relevant >>> >>> >>> prior= >>> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon >>> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it= >>> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has >>> >>>been, or has >>> >>> >>> any= >>> >>> >>> >> hope of
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0 >>> bbiw.net >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>r> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
=A0cheers
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>


>> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ= >>> >>> >>> >>b">
--
>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>>
<= >>> >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>


--
>> href=3D" >>> >>> >>> http://www.c= >>> >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= >>> >>> >>> >>e.org

>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>-- >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon >>> >>>Crowcroft = >>> >>> >><>> target= >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> >>>wrote:
>> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px >>> >>>#ccc soli= >>> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied >>> in
>>> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have >>> to
>>> >>> >>hand
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, >>> japan,
>>> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you >>> desribed
>>> >>> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the >>> >>>users' task= >>> >>> >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare >>> >>>them.

= >>> >>> >>=A0
>> >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e= >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>> >>> >>


MANET may not work for isolated >>> >>>users in a di= >>> >>> >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the rest >>> >>>of the netw= >>> >>> >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low >>> >>>probability to= >>> >>> >> work.
>>> >>> >>
=A0
>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a >>> great
>>> >>> >>target for the other side


I >>> >>>personally do not = >>> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because they >>> >>>do obscur= >>> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the most >>> >>>expensive= >>> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care.
>>> >>> >>
=A0
>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a >>> big
>>> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>> >>> >>

Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily >>> >>>dangerous*.= >>> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure >>> >>>
network.

=A0
>> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >>> >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= >>> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>your move, sunshine.
>>> >>> >>
>> >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st= >>> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd= >>> >>> >>ing-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>In missive >>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= >>> >>> >>il.
>>> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>
=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= >>> >>> >>g12602.html" >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= >>> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>> >>=A0>><>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@= >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases >>> >exist since AR= >>> >>> >>PA Packet radio
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery >>> >>>networks, veh= >>> >>> >>icular
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >> >>>href=3D"http://thing= >>> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for >>> anything
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of >>> >>>all communi= >>> >>> >>cations, not the
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" >>> >>><>> >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft >>> <
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc= >>> >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as >>> the
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for >>> >>>you" pos= >>> >>> >>er syndrome
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable >>> >>>solution,<= >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we >>> >>>really ask thi= >>> >>> >>s question?
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>> >>>themselves wha= >>> >>> >>t it is used for.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we >>> >>>want for th= >>> >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the >>> >>>E2E argume= >>> >>> >>nt(s))
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the >>> >>>problem it = >>> >>> >>solves
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, >>> >>>whichever vers= >>> >>> >>ion you choose
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d= >>> >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker >>> typed:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon >>> >>>Crowcroft wrot= >>> >>> >>e:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> >> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= >>> >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= >>> >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I >>> >>>encourage you to= >>> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 >>> >>>pointer was give= >>> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of >>> >>>whether this thr= >>> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was >>> >>>not relevant= >>> >>> >>...
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg >>> InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>> target= >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> --
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target= >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>target=3D"_blan= >>> >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. >>> >>>See:<br><br><a hr= >>> >>> >>ef=3D3D">> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w= >>> >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">>> >>>href=3D= >>> >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= >>> >>> >>il-arch=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= >>> >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>quote">
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>><span dir=3D3= >>> >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >>> >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon= >>> >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>.>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk<= >>> >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote >>> >>>class=3D3D"= >>> >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> >>>solid;padding-= >>> >>> >>left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases >>> >>>exist sinc= >>> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery >>> >>>networks, vehic= >>> >>> >>ular networ=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a >>> >>>href=3D3D= >>> >>> >>">> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it&quo= >>> >>> >>t; target=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>> >>>target=3D= >>> >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything >>> >>>we can imag= >>> >>> >>ine and=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not >>> >>>the inters= >>> >>> >>ection of o=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep >>> >>>2012 17:4= >>> >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>> >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.= >>> >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= >>> >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br >>> >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q= >>> >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= >>> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= >>> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span >>> >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= >>> >>> >>3D"mailto:>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@= >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft= >>> >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>> </a>&gt;</span>= >>> >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >>> >>>style=3D3D"margin:= >>> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for >>> >>>you&quot; poser sy= >>> >>> >>ndrome<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable >>> solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the >>> >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= >>> >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for >>> >>>the Intern= >>> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for >>> >>>example, they di= >>> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do >>> >>>we want f= >>> >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. >>> >>><br><br>= >>> >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= >>> >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= >>> >>> >>gt;
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E >>> >>>argument(s))<br&= >>> >>> >>gt;
>>> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it >>> >>>solves<br&= >>> >>> >>gt;
>>> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever >>> >>>version you c= >>> >>> >>hoose<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>> >>>href=3D"mailto= >>> >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net >>> " >>> >>>tar= >>> >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>blank">>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= >>> >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker >>> >>>typed:<= >>> >>> >>;br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon >>> >>>Crowcroft wrote:&= >>> >>> >>lt;br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a >>> >>>href=3D3D= >>> >>> >>"mailto:>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= >>> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= >>> >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> >>>target=3D3D"= >>> >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= >>> >>> >>ail.gmail.com"> >>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com&= >>> >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf >>> typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 >>> >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e= >>> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 >>> >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point= >>> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly >>> >>>relevant.<br><= >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether >>> >>>this thread= >>> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not >>> >>>relevant...= >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg >>> >>>InternetWorking<br>= >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">> >>>href=3D"http:= >>> >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" >>> >>>target=3D3D"_b= >>> >>> >>lank">>> >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net<= >>> >>> >>;/a><b=3D
>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>=A0>>r>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><span><font >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= >>> >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span >>> >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= >>> >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D">> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar= >>> >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org&q= >>> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>> >>cience.org" >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>> >>> >>a><br><=3D
>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>=A0>>br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br >>> >>>clear=3D3D"= >>> >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D">> >>>href=3D"http://= >>> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">on= >>> >>> >>tent-based-science.org" >>> target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= >>> >>> >>ased-scienc=3D
>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&l= >>> >>> >>t;br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0cheers
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>



-- >>>
>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>> >>> >>ent-based-science.org

>>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> jon >>> >> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Cro= >>wcroft <>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
>>
>>i dont.
>>
>>lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
>>running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
>>and send hashtag data =A0with sensor net is about 7 days...
>>
>>coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
>>landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
>>for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),
>>it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with
>>the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....
>v>

You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you ca= >>nnot
solve the network partition problem. People will die simply.
>>
=A0
>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>
>>something mon golfier frere hasn't
>>
>>being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is>r> >>where and what resources are still working would be good
>>
>>i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters>> >>(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)>> >>
>>
>>In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:
>>

>>=A0>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. =A0Which seems lik= >>e a big
>>=A0>>assumption. =A0Not much of a disaster if you still have power.>r> >>=A0>>
>>=A0>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>=A0>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers)= >> in
>>=A0>>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
>>=A0>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skills= >>et,
>>=A0>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during dis= >>asters
>>=A0>>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net = >>for
>>=A0>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could = >>also
>>=A0>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awaren= >>ess
>>=A0>>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams= >> find
>>=A0>>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to p= >>rovide
>>=A0>>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for ho= >>w to
>>=A0>>>optimse resoruce allocation.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>the balloons are visible here
>>=A0>>>http://x= >>kcd.com/1110/
>>=A0>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdc= >>z+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
>>=A0>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>><>">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whu= >>ch have been studied in
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do wit= >>h resources they have to
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> hand
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g a= >>ll of indonesia, japan,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> california) and not be prepared with giant = >>ballons as you desribed
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' tas= >>k of course.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disas= >>ter scenario
>>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are too far away from the rest of t= >>he network.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low = >>probability to work.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant= >> ballon idea is a great
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target for the other side
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is= >> not really research,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>because they do obscure things that we do not ev= >>en know. They can just
>>=A0>>> =A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do= >> not care.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant= >> ballon would be a big
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnel= >>s and under bridges.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*= >>. Just use the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>infrastructure
>>=A0>>> =A0>>network.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> your move, sunshine.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> In missive
>>=A0>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail= >>.gmail.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charse= >>t=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon. = >>See:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>ail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.i= >>etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM= >>, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, sur= >>e. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> radio
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield networks,= >> disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some actually in= >> use ad deployed.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't for = >>just one thing.it is, by = >>definition, for
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> anything
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and realize.= >>..it is the union of all communications,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> not the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one notion = >>with one technology.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "= >>;Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gm= >>ail.com> wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at= >> 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> >rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we use= >>d to talk about as the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my problem is= >> too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, whenever= >> you offer a workable solution,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of the p= >>roblem) changes the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the ass= >>umptions)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't change = >>the problem:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for the= >> Internet? Did we really ask this question?
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for example,= >> they did not ask themselves what it is used
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> for.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot explain.>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new thr= >>ead "What do we want for the
>>=A0>>>Internet" =A0but I
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> am
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I should do= >> this.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice thi= >>ngs about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is reall= >>y hard to change the problem it solves
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way it still d= >>oesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe no= >>t IPv5:)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive <>ref=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net<= >>/a>>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/= >>2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> In = >>missive <
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>>>cP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5Pg= >>T+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> s M= >>utaf typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0= >> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were given= >>)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0= >> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> relevant.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> it = >>is exactly relevant.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in the b= >>roader sense of whether this thread has been,
>>=A0>>>or has any
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> hope
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> of
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>being, c= >>onstructive, it was not relevant...
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave= >> Crocker
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Bran= >>denburg InternetWorking
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>ref=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> --
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> >ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc= >>e.org
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>sed-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset= >>=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quote= >>d-printable
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon. = >>See:<br><br><a href=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> >=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/m= >>sg12602.html">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> >" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h= >>tml</a><br><br><br><br><div
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>quote">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM= >>, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>ailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcr= >>oft at cl=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.>rget=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br&g= >>t;<blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> style=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor= >>der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET example,= >> sure. Many use cases exist since
>>=A0>>>ARPA Packet
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> rad=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, d= >>isaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> networ=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad dep= >>loyed.</p>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet isn&#3= >>9;t for just one <a href=3D3D">"_blank">http://thing.it"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by defi= >>nition, for anything we can
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> imagine and=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union of al= >>l communications, not the intersection
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> of o=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one technology.&l= >>t;/p>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_qu= >>ote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars
>>=A0>>>Mutaf&quot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> &lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf= >>@gmail=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<= >>;br type=3D3D"attribution"><blockquote
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0= >> 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div clas= >>s=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at
>>=A0>>>7:17 PM, Jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Cro=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"lt= >>r">&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> >k">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">= >>;Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>a></a>&gt;</span>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quo= >>te" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
>>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> #cc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk abo= >>ut as the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard= >> even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you offer a = >>workable solution,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem) chang= >>es the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the assumptions)<= >>br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> chang=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e the problem:<br><br&g= >>t;What do we want for the Internet? Did we really
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> ask t=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>his question?<br><br>= >>;Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> themselves wh=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They cannot e= >>xplain. <br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a new th= >>read &quot;What do we want for the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I sho= >>uld do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br></div><blockquote= >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,= >>204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about IP = >>(and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to cha= >>nge the problem it solves<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;= >>t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:50589DCC.20= >>30808 at dcrocker.net"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>blank">>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>= >>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div><div><br>= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/201= >>2 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In= >> missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmai= >>l.com"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-= >>s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>M58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1t= >>FcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s = >>Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> prior=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were given)= >><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it= >> is exactly relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broa= >>der sense of whether this thread has
>>=A0>>>been, or has
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> any=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, cons= >>tructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave = >>Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brand= >>enburg InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a= >> href=3D3D"http://bbiw.n= >>et" target=3D3D"_blank">>arget=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><b=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0che= >>ers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span><font color=3D3D&= >>quot;#888888"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></font></span></b= >>lockquote></div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><= >>span
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>b"><font color=3D3D&q= >>uot;#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> >et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>rget=3D"_blank">cience.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.co= >>ntent-based-science.org
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><br><=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></font></span></b= >>lockquote></div>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></blockquote></div>&= >>lt;br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a h= >>ref=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> = >>http://www.c=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org" target=3D3= >>D"_blank">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> > target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>=3D"_blank">e.org</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On = >>Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
>>=A0>>>Crowcroft =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>><span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<= >>a href=3D3D"mailto:Jon.C= >>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;&l= >>t;/span>
>>=A0>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D&qu= >>ot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>=A0>>>#ccc soli=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch ha= >>ve been studied in<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with r= >>esources they have to<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>hand<br>
=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of= >> indonesia, japan,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballo= >>ns as you desribed<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= >>t;Preparing the balloons is not the
>>=A0>>>users&#39; task=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> of course. <br><br>Organizations li= >>ke red cross will prepare
>>=A0>>>them.<br><br>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"= >>gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt
>>=A0>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding= >>-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br= >>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= >>t;<br>MANET may not work for isolated
>>=A0>>>users in a di=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are too f= >>ar away from the rest
>>=A0>>>of the netw=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only us= >>eless, it has a very low
>>=A0>>>probability to=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> work.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class= >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad= >>ding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ball= >>on idea is a great<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>target for the other side<br></blockquo= >>te><div><br><br>I
>>=A0>>>personally do not =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really research= >>,<br>because they
>>=A0>>>do obscur=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can just= >> <br>use the most
>>=A0>>>expensive=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class= >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad= >>ding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ball= >>on would be a big<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and= >> under bridges.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= >>t;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
>>=A0>>>dangerous*.=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> Just use the infrastructure
>>=A0>>><br>network.<br><br>=3DA0</div><b= >>lockquote class=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"mar= >>gin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>=A0>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>your move, sunshine.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div></div= >>><div></div><blockquote
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-le= >>ft:1px solid
>>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ing-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive
>>=A0>>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@= >>mail.gma=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>il.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091= >>b8d<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; c= >>harset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div class=3D3D"h5">= >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough = >>Jon. See:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D">eb/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/= >>web/manet/current/ms=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>g12602.html"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail= >>-archive/web/manet/c=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:= >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET exa= >>mple, sure. Many use cases
>>>exist since AR=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>PA Packet radio<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield = >>networks, disaster recovery
>>=A0>>>networks, veh=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>icular<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some ac= >>tually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&a= >>mp;#39;t for just one <a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"ht= >>tp://thing=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.it" target=3D3D"_blank">>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by defi= >>nition, for anything<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and= >> realize...it is the union of
>>=A0>>>all communi=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>cations, not the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of on= >>e notion with one technology.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:= >>48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;
>>=A0>>>&lt;<a href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>"mailto:>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com">>om">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Se= >>p 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>roft at cl.cam= >>.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th= >>is is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &a= >>mp;quot;my problem is too hard even for
>>=A0>>>you&quot; pos=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>er syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ba= >>sically, whenever you offer a workable
>>=A0>>>solution,<=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th= >>e poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pr= >>oblem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&= >>amp;#39;t change the problem:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we= >> want for the Internet? Did we
>>=A0>>>really ask thi=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>s question?<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET= >> for example, they did not ask
>>=A0>>>themselves wha=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>t it is used for.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They canno= >>t explain.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would st= >>art a new thread &quot;What do we
>>=A0>>>want for th=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I am<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure i= >>f I should do this.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br= >>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on= >>e of the nice things about IP (and the
>>=A0>>>E2E argume=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>nt(s))<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is= >> that it is really hard to change the
>>=A0>>>problem it =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>solves<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in= >> a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,
>>=A0>>>whichever vers=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ion you choose<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (w= >>ell, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In= >> missive &lt;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:= >>50589DCC.2030808 at d=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>crocker.net">= >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<= >>;br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrot=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &l= >>t;a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>C2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXD= >>ZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>om">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I
>>=A0>>>encourage you to=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> read the relevant prior work (many<br>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; po= >>inters were given)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1
>>=A0>>>pointer was give=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of
>>=A0>>>whether this thr=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of= >><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was
>>=A0>>>not relevant=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>...<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>w.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D">rg" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org" target= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scie= >>nce.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">f=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.con= >>tent-based-science.org"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blan=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>k">>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--2= >>0cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; ch= >>arset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: = >>quoted-printable<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough = >>Jon.
>>=A0>>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D">=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D<= >>/a>"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>=3D"_blank">http://w=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/curr= >>ent/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>">=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12= >>602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div= >> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<= >>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:= >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>>>&lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&= >>;lt;a hr=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:&= >>lt;a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>">>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D3D">ef=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wro= >>te:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0= >> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>=A0>>>solid;padding-=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the M= >>ANET example, sure. Many use cases
>>=A0>>>exist sinc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networ= >>ks, disaster recovery
>>=A0>>>networks, vehic=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use a= >>d deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The intern= >>et isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D">/thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">> target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>t; target=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&= >>;quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">lank">http://thing.it"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>"_blank">>" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definit= >>ion, for anything
>>=A0>>>we can imag=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ine and=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union = >>of all communications, not
>>=A0>>>the inters=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technolo= >>gy.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&am= >>p;quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep
>>=A0>>>2012 17:4=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &a= >>mp;lt=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&= >>quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:p= >>ars.mutaf at gmail.=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>com">>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot;
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&= >>amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br
>>=A0>>>type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&= >>quot;gmail_quot=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D3D&am= >>p;quot;margin:0 0 0
>>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;b= >>r&gt;&lt;div
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span
>>=A0>>>dir=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt= >>;a href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_bla= >>nk&quot;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:Jon.C= >>rowcroft=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>@>k">cl.cam.ac.uk">= >>Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&= >>lt;/span&gt=3D
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D3D&quo= >>t;gmail_quote&quot;
>>=A0>>>style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D<br>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&am= >>p;quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to tal= >>k about as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is= >> too hard even for
>>=A0>>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you off= >>er a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) = >>changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the
>>=A0>>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&am= >>p;lt;div=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;= >>t chang=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for
>>=A0>>>the Intern=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for
>>=A0>>>example, they di=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They can= >>not explain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would s= >>tart a new thread &amp;quot;What do
>>=A0>>>we want f=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure i= >>f I should do this.
>>=A0>>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt= >>;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&= >>gt;&lt;blockquote
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid
>>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things abou= >>t IP (and the E2E
>>=A0>>>argument(s))&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard t= >>o change the problem it
>>=A0>>>solves&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&= >>;amp;#39;t solve, whichever
>>=A0>>>version you c=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)= >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&= >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>:>">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">>0808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&quot;>> >>=A0>>>tar=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<= >>a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>ocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,= >> Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>>typed:&lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;= >>div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>om">>cP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.co= >>m</a>&quot;
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>>k">ail.gmail.com">>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@= >>mail.gmail.com</a>&=3D
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;= >><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
>>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D3D<= >>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were g= >>iven)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
>>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D3D<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly
>>=A0>>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;in the broader sense of whether
>>=A0>>>this thread=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;being, constructive, it was not
>>=A0>>>relevant...=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg
>>=A0>>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http:=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>//= >>bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank">>net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot;
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_b=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ef=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">> target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt= >>;/div&gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt= >>;font
>>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&lt;b= >>r&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot= >>;&gt;&lt;span
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
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>>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;-=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&qu= >>ot;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D">=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s" tar=3D
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">f=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org"
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>uot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&= >>;gt;<a
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D">=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>= >>cience.org"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.or= >>g</a>&lt;/=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;= >>&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br
>>=A0>>>clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &l= >>t;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">f=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://ontent-based= >>-science.org"
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D">cienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc"
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">f=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org"
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>>=A0>>> =A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091= >>b8d--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><span class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><fon= >>t color=3D3D"#888888"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><= >>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br&= >>gt;<a href=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D">cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org"= >>;
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">> target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>=3D"_blank">ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>=A0 =A0jon
>>
>>



--
>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>ent-based-science.org

>> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee-- cheers jon From welch at anzus.com Wed Sep 19 09:38:18 2012 From: welch at anzus.com (Arun Welch) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 11:38:18 -0500 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <491DAC06-DF33-4272-BEDD-BF705129C46A@anzus.com> Having actually done disaster relief on a number of occasions I can assure you that 72 hrs is extremely optimistic for anything beyond simple triage even in first-world situations. Even when the relief has been pre-staged it takes time to clear roads, etc. Helo's have very limited carrying capacity. ...arun On Sep 19, 2012, at 4:40 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > Sorry I don't believe this. I continue to question everything. > > I don't believe that there is a 72 hours delay. We have helicopters, etc. If there is an > unacceptable delay, the right approach is to invest on decreasing this delay because > communication is not the only problem in a disasters scenario. People need food, water, > etc. > > Do some meditation and ask yourself the *real reason of these publications*. It took > me 5 years to see the naked truth. > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters, > you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services > arrive is approximately 72 hours. > > A ver good text if you want a summary of many > real world disasters is this book > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075 > > The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN) > is better than nothing. > > vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks > are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data > _along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to > deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now. > > of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything, > except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and > told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led > to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone > to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know > anything > > In missive com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > > >> > >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in > >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to > >>> hand > >>> > >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, > >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed > >>> > >>> > >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. > >> > >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. > >> > >> > >> > >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. > >>> > >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. > >>> > >>> > >> > >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario > >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. > >> > >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. > >> > >> > >> > >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great > >>> target for the other side > >>> > >> > >> > >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, > >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just > >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big > >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. > >>> > >>> > >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the > >>infrastructure > >>network. > >> > >> > >> > >>> your move, sunshine. > >>> > >>> In missive >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: > >>> >> > >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet > >>> radio > >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular > >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for > >>> anything > >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, > >>> not the > >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. > >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the > >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the > >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question? > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used > >>> for. > >>> >>>> They cannot explain. > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I > >>> am > >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> Cheers, > >>> >>>> Pars > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) > >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves > >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose > >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed: > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < > >>> >>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> Par > >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many > >>> >>>>> pointers were given) > >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not > >>> relevant. > >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any > >>> hope > >>> >>>>> of > >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>d/ > >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>>>> >>-- > >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker > >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> cheers > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> jon > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> -- > >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>>> > >>> >>>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > > > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/0db9fa36/attachment.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 10:18:30 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:18:30 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <20120918181654.B2BF118C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20120918181654.B2BF118C0D3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: There is such a thing as too many possibilities - look at protocols like the Session Initiation Protocoll (aother SIP:) which is just too much of an xmas tree temptation IPv6 is similar -whereas Steve's Simple IP didn't offer such a huge temptation to put everything and the kitechen sink - it was just IP with more bits, but all the same hacks you have with IPv4 address space, but just the luxuery of 2^32 times as much space (or 2^32 IPv4 address spaces if you wanna think of it like that) yes, you are right, novell netware had enough of a footprint out there that the compromise/committee decision to go for 128 bits looked attractive for the same wrong reason that adopting CLNP and NSAPS looked attractive earlier (because DECNET already used it, so you got magic early adopters for free:) imho, a bad decision. (but this is a bit of hindsight and also, at the time, being heavily involved in the ipng requirements capture, and in the PIP effort towards ipng, I had an axe to grind - but i don't think the result did any favours to any particular group in the end.... the id/locator stuff might still have happened with SIP (and certainly would have with PIP, as it was a "feature") so who knows if we'd have actualy got there sooner... meanwhile, when I was a kid, I remember visiting our next door neighbours for sleepovers, and ther parents would read us the hobbit. (this is in about 1961 i guess) - at a certain point, my three friends, three brothers called Tom, Bert and William (a genuine serendiptous coincidence, I learned later) would exclaim with delight, "that's us - this is all about us!!" I assume you know which bit I am talking about of course, they came to a sticky (well, rocky) end (the characters in the hobbit, not my friends:-). I'm looking forward to the movie very much In missive <20120918181654.B2BF118C0D3 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Noel Chiappa t yped: >> > From: Jon Crowcroft >> >> >> How would SIP have been any easier-to/better-at actually being >> >> deployed than IPv6 >> >> > No 8+8, loc/id split endless timesink debate would have happened with >> > SIP as there weren't enough bits >> >>That had no effect on the deployability, though. To the extent that discussion >>had any effect on IPv6 at all, it was purely on the schedule - and I'm not >>even convinced it had much effect on that. >> >>BTW, you probably recall this, but for those who weren't there, the switch >>from 8 byte address size to 16 bytes had nothing to do with location/identity >>separation, it was down to wanting to support Netware (I think it was - some >>XNS derivative, anyway) addresses in IPv6. (The change was made at a meeting >>in Chicago - if anyone care, I can probably dig up a reference.) 8+8 and all >>the other location/identity separation schemes came later, once people >>realized there were enough bits there. >> >> Noel cheers jon From dhavey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 13:07:33 2012 From: dhavey at yahoo.com (Daniel Havey) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 13:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 Message-ID: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first place? Is it being wasted because it is of little value? What bandwidth are we talking about? I guess that bandwidth as a commodity would have a time and place. Bandwidth on what router and when? Is it bandwidth on the routers between the cat video community and youtube? Or the bandwidth on some router that nobody wants to use anyways? Maybe TANSAFL is not so easy to defeat. ...Daniel --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Jon Crowcroft wrote: From: Jon Crowcroft Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Cc: "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "" Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 1:20 AM So here's an idea - (pace, Bob Briscoe and Google Adwords) Decongestant Adverts?(DA - LikeCongestion Exposure, only backwards - employing Yet Another Level of Redirection called Re-Re-ECN... bandwidth doesn't have much operational cost - te real cosrt is the shadow price of other people's traffic you displace - if there isn't other traffic, then the additional cost of carrying yours is little. So we can have a receiver pays model for capacity - and the way they pay is via third party ads.. now this works very nicely if we observe thatcongesiton exposire requires you to transparently reveal where the congestion is - i.e. the source of ECN marks... so the source can also reflect ?the receiver to a wiling advertiser site, who then sends adverts with ECN-willing-to-pay marks ... sine the adverts flow the opposite direction from the traffic they don't add to congestion - indeed on many links (e.g. Adsl) there's plenty of capacity that way anyway that way, the net is free at the network layer, not just uo in the clouds what say? I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads j. On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: On Sep 18, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if > we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government > services ?run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are > configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP > addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, > then the network operators can always allow access to these services. > So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont > think so. There's no technical challenge there. It's a business problem. Allocate some addresses from the existing pool and use them for a defined service such as you're describing. What happens next, of course, is that since bandwidth costs money and no money is being exchanged, one gets no bandwidth. You've had the experience in hotels, no doubt; they offer free wifi in every room, by which they mean they have installed wifi APs on a LAN and connected that to some service provider. It works just fine as long as you send no packets on it. If you decide to send packets, oh, well gee. 20% loss is not a problem, is it? It's better than losing ALL of the packets, and after all it's free... TANSTAAFL... From arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 14:18:24 2012 From: arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com (Arjuna Sathiaseelan) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 22:18:24 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Daniel, There is quite a lot of offline mail exchanges going on regarding this..still.. Probably TANSAFL is right - but my neighbour/friend could always pay for me and I can get a free lunch! Thats the sort of "free" lunch we are keen to explore & encourage - who is willing to pay and what are the incentives for them to pay. With all the fibre roll-outs that's taking place, the end consumer would have surplus capacity which could be potentially shared & and ofcourse all of us dont use our xDSL access all the time... Regards Arjuna On 19 September 2012 21:07, Daniel Havey wrote: > I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first place? Is it being wasted because it is of little value? What bandwidth are we talking about? I guess that bandwidth as a commodity would have a time and place. Bandwidth on what router and when? > > Is it bandwidth on the routers between the cat video community and youtube? Or the bandwidth on some router that nobody wants to use anyways? > > Maybe TANSAFL is not so easy to defeat. > > ...Daniel > > > --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > > From: Jon Crowcroft > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > To: "Fred Baker (fred)" > Cc: "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "" > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 1:20 AM > > > So here's an idea - (pace, Bob Briscoe and Google Adwords) > Decongestant Adverts (DA - LikeCongestion Exposure, only backwards - employing Yet Another Level of Redirection called > Re-Re-ECN... > > bandwidth doesn't have much operational cost - te real cosrt is the shadow price of other people's traffic you displace - if there isn't other traffic, then the additional cost of carrying yours is little. > > So we can have a receiver pays model for capacity - and the way they pay is via third party ads.. > now this works very nicely if we observe thatcongesiton exposire requires you to transparently reveal where the congestion is - i.e. the source of ECN marks... > > so the source can also reflect the receiver to a wiling advertiser site, who then sends adverts with ECN-willing-to-pay marks ... > sine the adverts flow the opposite direction from the traffic they don't add to congestion - indeed on many links (e.g. Adsl) there's plenty of capacity that way anyway > > that way, the net is free at the network layer, not just uo in the clouds > what say? > I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads > > j. > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > > > > On Sep 18, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > > > >> Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if > >> we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government > >> services run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are > >> configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP > >> addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, > >> then the network operators can always allow access to these services. > >> So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont > >> think so. > > > > There's no technical challenge there. It's a business problem. Allocate some addresses from the existing pool and use them for a defined service such as you're describing. > > > > What happens next, of course, is that since bandwidth costs money and no money is being exchanged, one gets no bandwidth. You've had the experience in hotels, no doubt; they offer free wifi in every room, by which they mean they have installed wifi APs on a LAN and connected that to some service provider. It works just fine as long as you send no packets on it. If you decide to send packets, oh, well gee. 20% loss is not a problem, is it? It's better than losing ALL of the packets, and after all it's free... > > > > > TANSTAAFL... > > > > -- Regards Arjuna http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 19 14:19:45 2012 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake Message-ID: <20120919211945.2328818C0EB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Crowcroft > the problem you have to solve when you have a set of domains running > different protocols, is a system tp provide routing between translation > points - this is something we did before the internet was called the > internet - back in 1980, there were several different protocol families > in the world And those of us who lived through it have no wish to repeat the experience! There's a reason I came up with the "ships in the night" approach (originally for the MIT backbone, but it spread...). Noel From jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 14:45:44 2012 From: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 22:45:44 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: classic error - the problem is peak allocation for rare events is running nets at 40% load so everyone watching youtube/iplayer olympics works but tha means mean load is < 4% simple then to give capacity to others during the 23.5 hours we're running at mean On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: > I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first place? Is it being > wasted because it is of little value? What bandwidth are we talking about? > I guess that bandwidth as a commodity would have a time and place. > Bandwidth on what router and when? > > Is it bandwidth on the routers between the cat video community and > youtube? Or the bandwidth on some router that nobody wants to use anyways? > > Maybe TANSAFL is not so easy to defeat. > > ...Daniel > > > --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > > From: Jon Crowcroft > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > To: "Fred Baker (fred)" > Cc: "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "< > end2end-interest at postel.org>" > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 1:20 AM > > > So here's an idea - (pace, Bob Briscoe and Google Adwords) > Decongestant Adverts (DA - LikeCongestion Exposure, only backwards - > employing Yet Another Level of Redirection called > Re-Re-ECN... > > bandwidth doesn't have much operational cost - te real cosrt is the shadow > price of other people's traffic you displace - if there isn't other > traffic, then the additional cost of carrying yours is little. > > So we can have a receiver pays model for capacity - and the way they pay > is via third party ads.. > now this works very nicely if we observe thatcongesiton exposire requires > you to transparently reveal where the congestion is - i.e. the source of > ECN marks... > > so the source can also reflect the receiver to a wiling advertiser site, > who then sends adverts with ECN-willing-to-pay marks ... > sine the adverts flow the opposite direction from the traffic they don't > add to congestion - indeed on many links (e.g. Adsl) there's plenty of > capacity that way anyway > > that way, the net is free at the network layer, not just uo in the clouds > what say? > I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads > > j. > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Fred Baker (fred) > wrote: > > > > On Sep 18, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > > > > > Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if > > > we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government > > > services run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are > > > configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP > > > addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, > > > then the network operators can always allow access to these services. > > > So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont > > > think so. > > > > There's no technical challenge there. It's a business problem. Allocate > some addresses from the existing pool and use them for a defined service > such as you're describing. > > > > What happens next, of course, is that since bandwidth costs money and no > money is being exchanged, one gets no bandwidth. You've had the experience > in hotels, no doubt; they offer free wifi in every room, by which they mean > they have installed wifi APs on a LAN and connected that to some service > provider. It works just fine as long as you send no packets on it. If you > decide to send packets, oh, well gee. 20% loss is not a problem, is it? > It's better than losing ALL of the packets, and after all it's free... > > > > > TANSTAAFL... > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/94cc9254/attachment.html From jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 15:11:34 2012 From: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 23:11:34 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: there's a lot of delusions about markets - bankers get free lunches all the time - whichever way the "free" market goes, they charge interest. the richer you are the less tax you pay - sounds like a free lunch to me (ask mitt romney) journalists get free lunchs all the time did you ever hear of a politician declaring a meal as a "gift in kind" so where is the "free lunch" in a "free internet"? easy - same place as all the other free lunches - you put up wit h adverts, the server side gets more eyeballs, the goods&service provider (i.e. real world companies like ford, amazon, and governemntat agencies that do health and education, rather than virrtual services like youtube and facebook) )deliver MORE stuff for LESS overheads of finding out who wants what, where and when - this is worth a percentage of the real world profit - which is a LOT compared with the operating cost of a net this was always the promise of the internet - which is to say - optimise the real world using the virtual world data - the reduction of loss is worth a shedload of dosh ehen you look at the cost of moving higgs bosons compared with the price of moving photons and electrons - there's probably an E=MC^2 joke in here where we're talking relationship between mass, energy and cents, but i'm fresh out of jokes after the discrete balloon fight On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:18 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan < arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com> wrote: > Dear Daniel, > There is quite a lot of offline mail exchanges going on regarding > this..still.. > > Probably TANSAFL is right - but my neighbour/friend could always pay > for me and I can get a free lunch! Thats the sort of "free" lunch we > are keen to explore & encourage - who is willing to pay and what are > the incentives for them to pay. > > With all the fibre roll-outs that's taking place, the end consumer > would have surplus capacity which could be potentially shared & and > ofcourse all of us dont use our xDSL access all the time... > > Regards > Arjuna > > > On 19 September 2012 21:07, Daniel Havey wrote: > > I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first place? Is it being > wasted because it is of little value? What bandwidth are we talking about? > I guess that bandwidth as a commodity would have a time and place. > Bandwidth on what router and when? > > > > Is it bandwidth on the routers between the cat video community and > youtube? Or the bandwidth on some router that nobody wants to use anyways? > > > > Maybe TANSAFL is not so easy to defeat. > > > > ...Daniel > > > > > > --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > > > > From: Jon Crowcroft > > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > > To: "Fred Baker (fred)" > > Cc: "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "< > end2end-interest at postel.org>" > > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 1:20 AM > > > > > > So here's an idea - (pace, Bob Briscoe and Google Adwords) > > Decongestant Adverts (DA - LikeCongestion Exposure, only backwards - > employing Yet Another Level of Redirection called > > Re-Re-ECN... > > > > bandwidth doesn't have much operational cost - te real cosrt is the > shadow price of other people's traffic you displace - if there isn't other > traffic, then the additional cost of carrying yours is little. > > > > So we can have a receiver pays model for capacity - and the way they pay > is via third party ads.. > > now this works very nicely if we observe thatcongesiton exposire > requires you to transparently reveal where the congestion is - i.e. the > source of ECN marks... > > > > so the source can also reflect the receiver to a wiling advertiser > site, who then sends adverts with ECN-willing-to-pay marks ... > > sine the adverts flow the opposite direction from the traffic they don't > add to congestion - indeed on many links (e.g. Adsl) there's plenty of > capacity that way anyway > > > > that way, the net is free at the network layer, not just uo in the clouds > > what say? > > I see a bright new decongested future, full of IP banner ads > > > > j. > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Fred Baker (fred) > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sep 18, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: > > > > > > > >> Lets put the economics aside for a moment. I am more thinking like if > > > >> we can assign a class of IP addresses, where essential government > > > >> services run, and lets say if the intermediate network devices are > > > >> configured (within the network operators) to recognise that these IP > > > >> addresses can be allowed to access without the client/user to pay, > > > >> then the network operators can always allow access to these services. > > > >> So are there any technological challenges here to realize this? I dont > > > >> think so. > > > > > > > > There's no technical challenge there. It's a business problem. Allocate > some addresses from the existing pool and use them for a defined service > such as you're describing. > > > > > > > > What happens next, of course, is that since bandwidth costs money and no > money is being exchanged, one gets no bandwidth. You've had the experience > in hotels, no doubt; they offer free wifi in every room, by which they mean > they have installed wifi APs on a LAN and connected that to some service > provider. It works just fine as long as you send no packets on it. If you > decide to send packets, oh, well gee. 20% loss is not a problem, is it? > It's better than losing ALL of the packets, and after all it's free... > > > > > > > > > > TANSTAAFL... > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Regards > Arjuna > http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/279cf08e/attachment-0001.html From garmitage at swin.edu.au Wed Sep 19 15:43:14 2012 From: garmitage at swin.edu.au (grenville armitage) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:43:14 +1000 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: References: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <505A4A82.7060206@swin.edu.au> On 09/20/2012 07:18, Arjuna Sathiaseelan wrote: [..] > Thats the sort of "free" lunch we > are keen to explore& encourage - who is willing to pay and what are > the incentives for them to pay. So, TANSTAAFL... but TADL (there are donated lunches) ? cheers, gja (pronounced "taddle", of course.) From awo at ieee.org Wed Sep 19 17:04:13 2012 From: awo at ieee.org (Prof. Adam Wolisz) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 17:04:13 -0700 Subject: [e2e] How to deal with all this traffic (in relation to Free Internet & IPv6) In-Reply-To: References: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <505A5D7D.4000302@ieee.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/e4728cd8/attachment.html From fred at cisco.com Wed Sep 19 18:00:31 2012 From: fred at cisco.com (Fred Baker (fred)) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 01:00:31 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1348085253.52094.YahooMailClassic@web163003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50A84D3A-C9D2-4719-A676-7514CAD31D9B@cisco.com> On Sep 19, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: > I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first place? The most common reason is related to the diurnal cycle. When everyone's asleep, only the backup tool is running. The one after that is that bandwidth is generally purchased (for money) in fixed increments. If I need N bps and my options are M and P, where M < N < P, I either accept being congested some percentage of the time and go with the lower value, or increase to the upper one. In the latter case, I never use P-N. From dhavey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 18:20:44 2012 From: dhavey at yahoo.com (Daniel Havey) Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2012 18:20:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <50A84D3A-C9D2-4719-A676-7514CAD31D9B@cisco.com> Message-ID: <1348104044.28233.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> So those who purchase blocks of bandwidth may give N-P to the community if they choose? Hmmm, that is probably okay, but, N changes over time (diurnal cycle, etc.). When my N increases to near P then the community must drop off the link because the paying users are using it. This sounds a little like whitespace. ...Daniel --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > From: Fred Baker (fred) > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > To: "" > Cc: "Jon Crowcroft" , "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "" > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 6:00 PM > > On Sep 19, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: > > > I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first > place? > > The most common reason is related to the diurnal cycle. When > everyone's asleep, only the backup tool is running. > > The one after that is that bandwidth is generally purchased > (for money) in fixed increments. If I need N bps and my > options are M and P, where M < N < P, I either accept > being congested some percentage of the time and go with the > lower value, or increase to the upper one. In the latter > case, I never use P-N. From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 19:38:36 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 05:38:36 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > the goal is to have less people die - our s/w works in existing > phones - having it deploy will cost zero (unlike ballons) and > saving more than zero lives is quite a good achievement for > somethign costing zero, but it also delivers a situational > awareness to the emergency services when they eventually arrive > Well actually MANET is dangerous. Someone should inform the red cross that it is not really a solution so that they think about real solutions. You still don't answer my question about network partitions. We are talking about human life here cost is not an issue. Billions of dollars are spent for the army, you worry about balloon cost? This is not a research problem this is an education problem. > meanwhile, back on discrete IP, the problem you have to solve when > you have a set of domains running different protocols, is a system > tp provide routing between translation points - this is something > we did before the internet was called the internet - back in 1980, > there were several different protocol families in the world - e.g. > tthe public and academic packet switched networks running the X.25 > network ayer protocol, networks running DECNET, nets running SNA > and so on - so we design protocoll translaters - and we deisnged a > name based scheme to provide mapping from application layer down > to transport, to beable to name the "nexthop" in the multiprotocol > route (the ideas in this, Yellow Book Transport Service and name > based route construction is visible in the two ideas I mentioned, > Paul Francis' IPNL and Ran Atkinson's work on ILNP - I encourage > you to have a look at those, as they speak to the original > document you circulated...and fill in a lot of details on how to > build such a system. > > 20 years ago we didn't have the IP address shortage problem. I solve this problem. There is no scuh thing as lucky design, like I did this 20 years ago for problem X we can use it now for problem Y. There is no such thing. You were trying to solve other problems. I am trying to solve a different problem. > > > In missive com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > > >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity > >>> > >>> i dont. > >>> > >>> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones > >>> running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are > >>> and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days... > >>> > >>> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and > >>> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see > >>> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage), > >>> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing > with > >>> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind.... > >>> > >> > >> > >>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot > >>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >>> something mon golfier frere hasn't > >>> > >>> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of > who is > >>> where and what resources are still working would be good > >>> > >>> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup > diasters > >>> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were > looters) > >>> > >>> > >>> In missive , John Day typed: > >>> > >>> >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a > big > >>> >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power. > >>> >> > >>> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters. > >>> >> > >>> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in > >>> >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply > >>> >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, > >>> >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. > >>> >>> > >>> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters > >>> >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for > >>> >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive. > >>> >>> > >>> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also > >>> >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness > >>> >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find > >>> >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide > >>> >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to > >>> >>>optimse resoruce allocation. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>>the balloons are visible here > >>> >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/ > >>> >>>if you clock and drag far enough along... > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>>In missive > >>> >>> >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>> >>wrote: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been > studied > >>> in > >>> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they > have to > >>> >>> >>> hand > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, > >>> japan, > >>> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you > >>> desribed > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario > >>> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to > >>> work. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a > >>> great > >>> >>> >>> target for the other side > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really > >>> research, > >>> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They > can > >>> just > >>> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be > a big > >>> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under > bridges. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the > >>> >>> >>infrastructure > >>> >>> >>network. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> your move, sunshine. > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> In missive > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>> >>> >>wrote: > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist > since > >>> ARPA Packet > >>> >>> >>> radio > >>> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, > >>> vehicular > >>> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. > >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by > >>> definition, for > >>> >>> >>> anything > >>> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all > >>> communications, > >>> >>> >>> not the > >>> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. > >>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" < > pars.mutaf at gmail.com> > >>> wrote: > >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > >>> >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask > this > >>> question? > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves > what > >>> it is used > >>> >>> >>> for. > >>> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the > >>> >>>Internet" but I > >>> >>> >>> am > >>> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, > >>> >>> >>> >>>> Pars > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > argument(s)) > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it > solves > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version > you > >>> choose > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave > Crocker > >>> typed: > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> > CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, > >>> >>> >>> Par > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior > >>> work (many > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon > Crowcroft), it > >>> is not > >>> >>> >>> relevant. > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has > been, > >>> >>>or has any > >>> >>> >>> hope > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> of > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/ > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>-- > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- > >>> >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >>>> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>-- > >>> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d > >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/= > >>> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> > >>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= > >>> >>> >>> > >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_= > >>> >>> >>> >>quote"> > >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr">< >>> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= > >>> >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote" > >>> >>> >>> style= > >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist > since > >>> >>>ARPA Packet > >>> >>> >>> rad= > >>> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery > networks, > >>> vehicular > >>> >>> >>> networ= > >>> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

> >>> >>> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >>> http://thing.it" > >>> >>> >>> target= > >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for > anything we > >>> can > >>> >>> >>> imagine and= > >>> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the > >>> intersection > >>> >>> >>> of o= > >>> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

> >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, > "Pars > >>> >>>Mutaf" > >>> >>> >>> <= > >>> >>> >>> >>; >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= > >>> >>> >>> >>.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 > at > >>> >>>7:17 PM, Jon > >>> >>> >>> Cro= > >>> >>> >>> >>wcroft < >>> >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = > >>> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > > > >>> >>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px > >>> >>> >>> #cc= > >>> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser > >>> syndrome
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No > I > >>> didn't > >>> >>> >>> chang= > >>> >>> >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? > Did > >>> we really > >>> >>> >>> ask t= > >>> >>> >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did > not ask > >>> >>> >>> themselves wh= > >>> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
> >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for > the > >>> >>> >>> Internet"= > >>> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. >

Cheers, > >>> >>> >>>
Pars
=A0<= > >>> >>> >>> >>br>
>>> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > >>> >>> >>> 0.8e= > >>> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > argument(s))
> >>> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it > solves
> >>> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version > you > >>> choose
> >>> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>In missive < >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" > >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_= > >>> >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave > Crocker > >>> typed:
> >>> >>> >>> >>

> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive < >>> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= > >>> >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= > >>> >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com > >>> >, > >>> >>> >>> Par
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read > the > >>> relevant > >>> >>> >>> prior= > >>> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by > Jon > >>> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it= > >>> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread > has > >>> >>>been, or has > >>> >>> >>> any= > >>> >>> >>> >> hope of
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not > relevant...
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0 target=3D"_blank"> > >>> bbiw.net > >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>r> > >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
=A0cheers
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>


clear=3D"all"> >>> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ= > >>> >>> >>> >>b">
--
>>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >>>
<= > >>> >>> >>> >>br> > >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>


--
>>> href=3D" > >>> >>> >>> http://www.c= > >>> >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= > >>> >>> >>> >>e.org

> >>> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> cheers > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> jon > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>-- > >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, > Jon > >>> >>>Crowcroft = > >>> >>> >>< Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> target= > >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>> >>>wrote:
>>> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1px > >>> >>>#ccc soli= > >>> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been > studied > >>> in
> >>> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they > have > >>> to
> >>> >>> >>hand
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, > >>> japan,
> >>> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you > >>> desribed
> >>> >>> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the > >>> >>>users' task= > >>> >>> >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare > >>> >>>them.

= > >>> >>> >>=A0
>>> >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e= > >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>> >>> >>


MANET may not work for isolated > >>> >>>users in a di= > >>> >>> >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the > rest > >>> >>>of the netw= > >>> >>> >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low > >>> >>>probability to= > >>> >>> >> work.
> >>> >>> >>
=A0
>>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = > >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a > >>> great
> >>> >>> >>target for the other side


I > >>> >>>personally do not = > >>> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because > they > >>> >>>do obscur= > >>> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the > most > >>> >>>expensive= > >>> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>> >>> >>
=A0
>>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = > >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a > >>> big
> >>> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under > bridges.
> >>> >>> >>

Vehicular networks are > *unnecessarily > >>> >>>dangerous*.= > >>> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure > >>> >>>
network.

=A0
>>> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > >>> >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= > >>> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>your move, sunshine.
> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st= > >>> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd= > >>> >>> >>ing-left:1ex"> > >>> >>> >>In missive > >>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= > >>> >>> >>il.
> >>> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>
=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= > >>> >>> >>g12602.html" > >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= > >>> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>< >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@= > >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases > >>> >exist since AR= > >>> >>> >>PA Packet radio
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery > >>> >>>networks, veh= > >>> >>> >>icular
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad > deployed.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >>> >>>href=3D"http://thing= > >>> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for > >>> anything
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union > of > >>> >>>all communi= > >>> >>> >>cations, not the
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one > technology.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" > >>> >>>< >>> >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> > >>> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon > Crowcroft > >>> <
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc= > >>> >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as > >>> the
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for > >>> >>>you" pos= > >>> >>> >>er syndrome
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a > workable > >>> >>>solution,<= > >>> >>> >>br> > >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes > the
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we > >>> >>>really ask thi= > >>> >>> >>s question?
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask > >>> >>>themselves wha= > >>> >>> >>t it is used for.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do > we > >>> >>>want for th= > >>> >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and > the > >>> >>>E2E argume= > >>> >>> >>nt(s))
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change > the > >>> >>>problem it = > >>> >>> >>solves
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, > >>> >>>whichever vers= > >>> >>> >>ion you choose
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive < >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d= > >>> >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave > Crocker > >>> typed:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon > >>> >>>Crowcroft wrot= > >>> >>> >>e:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= > >>> >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= > >>> >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I > >>> >>>encourage you to= > >>> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 > >>> >>>pointer was give= > >>> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly > relevant.
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of > >>> >>>whether this thr= > >>> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was > >>> >>>not relevant= > >>> >>> >>...
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg > >>> InternetWorking
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0 http://bbiw.net" > >>> target= > >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> --
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target= > >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blan= > >>> >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. > >>> >>>See:<br><br><a hr= > >>> >>> >>ef=3D3D" >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w= > >>> >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
> >>> >>> > >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> >>>href=3D= > >>> >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" > >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= > >>> >>> >>il-arch=3D
> >>> >>> > >>> > >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= > >>> >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>quote">
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>><span dir=3D3= > >>> >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto: >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= > >>> >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" > >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon= > >>> >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>. >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk<= > >>> >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote > >>> >>>class=3D3D"= > >>> >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc > >>> >>>solid;padding-= > >>> >>> >>left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use > cases > >>> >>>exist sinc= > >>> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery > >>> >>>networks, vehic= > >>> >>> >>ular networ=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad > deployed.</p>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one > <a > >>> >>>href=3D3D= > >>> >>> >>" >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it&quo= > >>> >>> >>t; target=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> http://thing.it" > >>> >>>target=3D= > >>> >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for > anything > >>> >>>we can imag= > >>> >>> >>ine and=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, > not > >>> >>>the inters= > >>> >>> >>ection of o=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 > Sep > >>> >>>2012 17:4= > >>> >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.= > >>> >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" > >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= > >>> >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br > >>> >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q= > >>> >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 > >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= > >>> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div > >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= > >>> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span > >>> >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= > >>> >>> >>3D"mailto: >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft= > >>> >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > >>> </a>&gt;</span>= > >>> >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > >>> >>>style=3D3D"margin:= > >>> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as > the<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for > >>> >>>you&quot; poser sy= > >>> >>> >>ndrome<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable > >>> solution,<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes > the<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the > >>> >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= > >>> >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want > for > >>> >>>the Intern= > >>> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for > >>> >>>example, they di= > >>> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. > <br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread > &quot;What do > >>> >>>we want f= > >>> >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. > >>> >>><br><br>= > >>> >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote > >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= > >>> >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= > >>> >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E > >>> >>>argument(s))<br&= > >>> >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it > >>> >>>solves<br&= > >>> >>> >>gt;
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever > >>> >>>version you c= > >>> >>> >>hoose<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: >>> >>>href=3D"mailto= > >>> >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net > >>> " > >>> >>>tar= > >>> >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>blank"> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= > >>> >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave > Crocker > >>> >>>typed:<= > >>> >>> >>;br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon > >>> >>>Crowcroft wrote:&= > >>> >>> >>lt;br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive > &lt;<a > >>> >>>href=3D3D= > >>> >>> >>"mailto: >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= > >>> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= > >>> >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" > >>> >>>target=3D3D"= > >>> >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= > >>> >>> >>ail.gmail.com"> > >>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com&= > >>> >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf > >>> typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > >>> >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e= > >>> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 > >>> >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point= > >>> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly > >>> >>>relevant.<br><= > >>> >>> >>br> > >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of > whether > >>> >>>this thread= > >>> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was > not > >>> >>>relevant...= > >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave > Crocker<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg > >>> >>>InternetWorking<br>= > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D" >>> >>>href=3D"http:= > >>> >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" > >>> >>>target=3D3D"_b= > >>> >>> >>lank"> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net<= > >>> >>> >>;/a><b=3D
> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>=A0>>r>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><span><font > >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= > >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> > >>> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= > >>> >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span > >>> >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D >>> >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font > >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= > >>> >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D" >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar= > >>> >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org&q= > >>> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s= > >>> >>> >>cience.org" > >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= > >>> >>> >>a><br><=3D
> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>=A0>>br>
> >>> >>> > >>> > >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br > >>> >>>clear=3D3D"= > >>> >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D" >>> >>>href=3D"http://= > >>> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">on= > >>> >>> >>tent-based-science.org" > >>> target=3D3D"_blank"> >>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" > >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= > >>> >>> >>ased-scienc=3D
> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>=A0>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&l= > >>> >>> >>t;br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0cheers
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>



-- > >>>
>>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" > >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= > >>> >>> >>ent-based-science.org

> >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- > >>> >>> > >>> >>> cheers > >>> >>> > >>> >>> jon > >>> >> > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon > Cro= > >>wcroft < Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = > >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > wrote:
>>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > #cc= > >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
> >>
> >>i dont.
> >>
> >>lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
> >>running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
> >>and send hashtag data =A0with sensor net is about 7 days...
> >>
> >>coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
> >>landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
> >>for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),
> >>it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing > with
> >>the actual human movement/location patterns in > mind....
>>v>

You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, > you ca= > >>nnot
solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. >
> >>
=A0
0pt = > >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>
> >>something mon golfier frere hasn't
> >>
> >>being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who > is >>r> > >>where and what resources are still working would be good
> >>
> >>i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup > diasters >>> > >>(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were > looters) >>> > >>
> >>
> >>In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day > typed:
> >>

> >>=A0>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. =A0Which seems > lik= > >>e a big
> >>=A0>>assumption. =A0Not much of a disaster if you still have > power. >>r> > >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>=A0>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell > towers)= > >> in
> >>=A0>>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are > simply
> >>=A0>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the > skills= > >>et,
> >>=A0>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during > dis= > >>asters
> >>=A0>>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless > net = > >>for
> >>=A0>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network > could = > >>also
> >>=A0>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational > awaren= > >>ess
> >>=A0>>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief > teams= > >> find
> >>=A0>>>where self help groups existed with resources and where > to p= > >>rovide
> >>=A0>>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system > for ho= > >>w to
> >>=A0>>>optimse resoruce allocation.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>the balloons are visible here
> >>=A0>>> > http://x= > >>kcd.com/1110/
> >>=A0>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>In missive > <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdc= > >>z+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
> >>=A0>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3DISO-8859-1 >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon > Crowcroft<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>< Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= > >>">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of > whu= > >>ch have been studied in
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do > wit= > >>h resources they have to
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> hand
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> they may be spread over a large area > (e.g a= > >>ll of indonesia, japan,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> california) and not be prepared with > giant = > >>ballons as you desribed
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' > tas= > >>k of course.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare > them.<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> what many DO have is phones and > laptops. >>> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of > these.<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a > disas= > >>ter scenario
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are too far away from the rest > of t= > >>he network.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very > low = > >>probability to work.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your > giant= > >> ballon idea is a great
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target for the other side
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. > This is= > >> not really research,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they do obscure things that we do > not ev= > >>en know. They can just
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones. > They do= > >> not care.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a > giant= > >> ballon would be a big
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> drag, especially when you go through > tunnel= > >>s and under bridges.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily > dangerous*= > >>. Just use the
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>infrastructure
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>network.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> your move, sunshine.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> In missive
> > >>=A0>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail > = > >>.gmail.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; > charse= > >>t=3DISO-8859-1
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough > Jon. = > >>See:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> http://www.ietf.org/m= > >>ail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.i= > >>etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at > 10:17 AM= > >>, Jon Crowcroft
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>< jon.crowcr= > >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, > sur= > >>e. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> radio
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield > networks,= > >> disaster recovery networks, vehicular
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some > actually in= > >> use ad deployed.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't > for = > >>just one thing.it > is, by = > >>definition, for
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> anything
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and > realize.= > >>..it is the union of all communications,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> not the
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one > notion = > >>with one technology.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, > "= > >>;Pars Mutaf" < ">pars.mutaf at gm= > >>ail.com> wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, > 2012 at= > >> 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Jon.C= > >>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we > use= > >>d to talk about as the
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my > problem is= > >> too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, > whenever= > >> you offer a workable solution,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of > the p= > >>roblem) changes the
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the > ass= > >>umptions)
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't > change = > >>the problem:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for > the= > >> Internet? Did we really ask this question?
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for > example,= > >> they did not ask themselves what it is used
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> for.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot > explain. >>> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new > thr= > >>ead "What do we want for the
> >>=A0>>>Internet" =A0but I
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> am
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I > should do= > >> this.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice > thi= > >>ngs about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is > reall= > >>y hard to change the problem it solves
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way it > still d= > >>oesn't solve, whichever version you choose
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, > maybe no= > >>t IPv5:)
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive > < >>ref=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"> > 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net<= > >>/a>>, Dave Crocker typed:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On > 9/18/= > >>2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> > In = > >>missive <
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tF= > >>cP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5Pg= > >>T+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> > s M= > >>utaf typed:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> > =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> > =A0= > >> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were > given= > >>)
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> > =A0= > >> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> relevant.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> > =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> > it = > >>is exactly relevant.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in > the b= > >>roader sense of whether this thread has been,
> >>=A0>>>or has any
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> hope
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> of
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> > =A0>>being, c= > >>onstructive, it was not relevant...
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> > =A0>>d/
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> > =A0>>--
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> > =A0Dave= > >> Crocker
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> > =A0Bran= > >>denburg InternetWorking
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> > =A0 >>ref=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> --
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> http://www.c= > >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-scienc= > >>e.org
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> http://www.content-ba= > >>sed-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > = > >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; > charset= > >>=3DISO-8859-1
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: > quote= > >>d-printable
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough > Jon. = > >>See:<br><br><a href=3D3D"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target= > >>=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/m= > >>sg12602.html">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D= > >>" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h= > >>tml</a><br><br><br><br><div
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>quote">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at > 10:17 AM= > >>, Jon Crowcroft <span
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr= > >>=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto: href=3D"m= > >>ailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > "
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcr= > >>oft at cl=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>. ta= > >>rget=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> > wrote:<br&g= > >>t;<blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> style=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;bor= > >>der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET > example,= > >> sure. Many use cases exist since
> >>=A0>>>ARPA Packet
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> rad=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield > networks, d= > >>isaster recovery networks, vehicular
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> networ=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad > dep= > >>loyed.</p>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet > isn&#3= > >>9;t for just one <a href=3D3D" target=3D= > >>"_blank">http://thing.it"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> >>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by > defi= > >>nition, for anything we can
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> imagine and=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union > of al= > >>l communications, not the intersection
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> of o=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one > technology.&l= > >>t;/p>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div > class=3D3D"gmail_qu= > >>ote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars
> >>=A0>>>Mutaf&quot;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> &lt=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto: = > >>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf= > >>@gmail=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; > wrote:<= > >>;br type=3D3D"attribution"><blockquote
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e" > style=3D3D"margin:0= > >> 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div > clas= > >>s=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at
> >>=A0>>>7:17 PM, Jon
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Cro=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span > dir=3D3D"lt= > >>r">&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.u= > >>k">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">= > >>; > Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>a></a>&gt;</span>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>kquote > class=3D3D"gmail_quo= > >>te" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
> >>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> #cc=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>c > solid;padding-left:1ex"&g= > >>t;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk > abo= > >>ut as the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too > hard= > >> even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you > offer a = > >>workable solution,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem) > chang= > >>es the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the > assumptions)<= > >>br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> chang=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e the > problem:<br><br&g= > >>t;What do we want for the Internet? Did we really
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> ask t=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>his > question?<br><br>= > >>;Take MANET for example, they did not ask
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> themselves wh=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They > cannot e= > >>xplain. <br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a > new th= > >>read &quot;What do we want for the
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I > sho= > >>uld do this. <br><br>Cheers,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>br></div><blockquote= > >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt > 0pt
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> 0.8e=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,= > >>204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about > IP = > >>(and the E2E argument(s))<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to > cha= > >>nge the problem it solves<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still > doesn&#39;= > >>t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not > IPv5:)<b= > >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a > href=3D= > >>3D"mailto: ">50589DCC.20= > >>30808 at dcrocker.net"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>blank"> href=3D"mailto= > >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net > </a>= > >>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>><div><div><br>= > >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On > 9/18/201= > >>2 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In= > >> missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> 58iDwO%252BV2X= > >>V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmai= > >>l.com"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-= > >>s=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWf= > >>M58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1t= > >>FcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s = > >>Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> prior=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were > given)= > >><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> is not > relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it= > >> is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the > broa= > >>der sense of whether this thread has
> >>=A0>>>been, or has
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> any=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, > cons= > >>tructive, it was not relevant...<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; > =3DA0Dave = > >>Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; > =3DA0Brand= > >>enburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; > =3DA0<a= > >> href=3D3D" > http://bbiw.n= > >>et" target=3D3D"_blank"> http://bbiw.net" t= > >>arget=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> >> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><b=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>></div></div>=3DA0che= > >>ers<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span><font > color=3D3D&= > >>quot;#888888"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>></font></span></b= > >>lockquote></div><br><br > clear=3D3D"all"><= > >>span
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>b"><font > color=3D3D&q= > >>uot;#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> targ= > >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> ta= > >>rget=3D"_blank">cience.org" > target=3D3D"_blank"> >>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.co= > >>ntent-based-science.org
> >> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><br><=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>></font></span></b= > >>lockquote></div>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>></blockquote></div>&= > >>lt;br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- > <br><a h= > >>ref=3D3D"
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D"_blank">= > >>http://www.c=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> http://ontent-based-s= > >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org" > target=3D3= > >>D"_blank">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> http://www.content-based-scienc"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> target= > >>=3D"_blank">e.org</a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> > =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--= > >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0cheers
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> http://www.content-based-science.org"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; > charset=3DISO-8859-1 >>> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: > quoted-printable
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div > class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On = > >>Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span > dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<= > >>a href=3D3D"mailto: ">Jon.C= > >>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> Jon= > >>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&gt;&l= > >>t;/span>
> >>=A0>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D&qu= > >>ot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> >>=A0>>>#ccc soli=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>d;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of > whuch ha= > >>ve been studied in<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do > with r= > >>esources they have to<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>hand<br>
> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g > all of= > >> indonesia, japan,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant > ballo= > >>ns as you desribed<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= > >>t;Preparing the balloons is not the
> >>=A0>>>users&#39; task=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> of course. > <br><br>Organizations li= > >>ke red cross will prepare
> >>=A0>>>them.<br><br>=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote > class=3D3D"= > >>gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt
> >>=A0>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);padding= > >>-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>what many DO have is phones and > laptops.<br&g= > >>t;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>manets can be usefully built out of > these.<br= > >>>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= > >>t;<br>MANET may not work for isolated
> >>=A0>>>users in a di=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are > too f= > >>ar away from the rest
> >>=A0>>>of the netw=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not > only us= > >>eless, it has a very low
> >>=A0>>>probability to=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> work.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote > class= > >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);pad= > >>ding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant > ball= > >>on idea is a great<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>target for the other > side<br></blockquo= > >>te><div><br><br>I
> >>=A0>>>personally do not =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really > research= > >>,<br>because they
> >>=A0>>>do obscur=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can > just= > >> <br>use the most
> >>=A0>>>expensive=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. > <br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote > class= > >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204);pad= > >>ding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant > ball= > >>on would be a big<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels > and= > >> under bridges.<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= > >>t;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
> >>=A0>>>dangerous*.=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> Just use the infrastructure
> > >>=A0>>><br>network.<br><br>=3DA0</div><b= > >>lockquote class=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"mar= > >>gin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> >>=A0>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>your move, sunshine.<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>><br></blockquote><div></div= > >>><div></div><blockquote
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8ex;border-le= > >>ft:1px solid
> >>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ing-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive
> > >>=A0>>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@ > = > >>mail.gma=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>il.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091= > >>b8d<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: > text/plain; c= > >>harset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div > class=3D3D"h5">= > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question > enough = > >>Jon. See:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D" http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w= > >>eb/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/= > >>web/manet/current/ms=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>g12602.html"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.ietf.= > >>org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/mail= > >>-archive/web/manet/c=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at > 10:= > >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam= > >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target=3D"_blank= > >>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET > exa= > >>mple, sure. Many use cases
> >>>exist since AR=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>PA Packet radio<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. > Battlefield = > >>networks, disaster recovery
> >>=A0>>>networks, veh=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>icular<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; > networks...some ac= > >>tually in use ad deployed.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet > isn&a= > >>mp;#39;t for just one <a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">ht= > >>tp://thing=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.it" > target=3D3D"_blank"> >>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by > defi= > >>nition, for anything<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine > and= > >> realize...it is the union of
> >>=A0>>>all communi=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>cations, not the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection > of on= > >>e notion with one technology.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 > 17:= > >>48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;
> >>=A0>>>&lt;<a href=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"mailto: pars.mutaf at gmail.= > >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com"> pars.mutaf at gmail.c= > >>om">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On > Tue, Se= > >>p 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > <a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam= > >>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> ">roft at cl.cam= > >>.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th= > >>is is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &a= > >>mp;quot;my problem is too hard even for
> >>=A0>>>you&quot; pos=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>er syndrome<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ba= > >>sically, whenever you offer a workable
> >>=A0>>>solution,<=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th= > >>e poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pr= > >>oblem (or the assumptions)<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I > didn&= > >>amp;#39;t change the problem:<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What > do we= > >> want for the Internet? Did we
> >>=A0>>>really ask thi=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>s question?<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take > MANET= > >> for example, they did not ask
> >>=A0>>>themselves wha=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t it is used for.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They > canno= > >>t explain.<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I > would st= > >>art a new thread &quot;What do we
> >>=A0>>>want for th=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I > am<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not > sure i= > >>f I should do this.<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > Cheers,<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > Pars<br= > >>>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on= > >>e of the nice things about IP (and the
> >>=A0>>>E2E argume=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>nt(s))<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is= > >> that it is really hard to change the
> >>=A0>>>problem it =3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>solves<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in= > >> a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,
> >>=A0>>>whichever vers=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ion you choose<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (w= > >>ell, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In= > >> missive &lt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: 50589DCC.2030808 at d">= > >>50589DCC.2030808 at d=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target=3D"_blank"= > >>>crocker.net"> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= > >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker > typed:<= > >>;br>
> >> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrot=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e:<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &l= > >>t;a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae= > >>C2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> 2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.= > >>gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">CACQuiebE-sXD= > >>ZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= > >>om">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, > Par<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I
> >>=A0>>>encourage you to=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> read the relevant prior work > (many<br> >>> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; po= > >>inters were given)<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1
> >>=A0>>>pointer was give=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not > relevant.<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of
> >>=A0>>>whether this thr=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of= > >><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was
> >>=A0>>>not relevant=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>...<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D" http://bbiw.net"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> http://bbi= > >>w.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = > >>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > --<br&g= > >>t;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; > <a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D" http://www.content-based-science.o= > >>rg" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org" > target= > >>=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"> http://www= > >>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-scie= > >>nce.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" hre= > >>f=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.con= > >>tent-based-science.org"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blan=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>k"> http://www.content-based-s= > >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > </= > >>a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--2= > >>0cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: > text/html; ch= > >>arset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: = > >>quoted-printable<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question > enough = > >>Jon.
> >>=A0>>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a > hr=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D" href= > >>=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D<= > >>/a>"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> target= > >>=3D"_blank">http://w=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target=3D"_= > >>blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/curr= > >>ent/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>" http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= > >>=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D > "
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.ietf.= > >>org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12= > >>602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div= > >> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<= > >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at > 10:= > >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>=A0>>>&lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&= > >>;lt;a hr=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:&= > >>lt;a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: jon.crowcroft at cl.cam= > >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam= > >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a > href=3D3D" >>ef=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk > "
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://cam.ac.uk= > >>" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; > wro= > >>te:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; > style=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0= > >> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>=A0>>>solid;padding-=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take > the M= > >>ANET example, sure. Many use cases
> >>=A0>>>exist sinc=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield > networ= > >>ks, disaster recovery
> >>=A0>>>networks, vehic=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in > use a= > >>d deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The > intern= > >>et isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D" href=3D"http:/= > >>/thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://thing.it"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t; target=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&= > >>;quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D" target=3D"_b= > >>lank">http://thing.it"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"_blank"> http://thing.it= > >>" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by > definit= > >>ion, for anything
> >>=A0>>>we can imag=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ine and=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the > union = > >>of all communications, not
> >>=A0>>>the inters=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one > technolo= > >>gy.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div > class=3D3D3D&am= > >>p;quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep
> >>=A0>>>2012 17:4=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; > &a= > >>mp;lt=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a > href=3D3D3D&= > >>quot;mailto:<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: .">p= > >>ars.mutaf at gmail.=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>com"> pars.mutaf at gmail.= > >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot;
> > >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&= > >>amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br
> >>=A0>>>type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote > class=3D3D3D&= > >>quot;gmail_quot=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot; > style=3D3D3D&am= > >>p;quot;margin:0 0 0
> >>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;b= > >>r&gt;&lt;div
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon > Cro=3D3D&l= > >>t;br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span
> > >>=A0>>>dir=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt= > >>;a href=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam= > >>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target=3D"_blank= > >>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_bla= > >>nk&quot;&gt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: ">Jon.C= > >>rowcroft=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>@ target=3D"_blan= > >>k">cl.cam.ac.uk"> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">= > >>Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&= > >>lt;/span&gt=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>; > wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<b= > >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote > class=3D3D3D&quo= > >>t;gmail_quote&quot;
> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px > #cc=3D3D<br> >>> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c > solid;padding-left:1ex&am= > >>p;quot;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to > tal= > >>k about as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my > problem is= > >> too hard even for
> >>=A0>>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you > off= > >>er a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the > problem) = > >>changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the
> > >>=A0>>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&am= > >>p;lt;div=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I > didn&amp;#39;= > >>t chang=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the > problem:&lt;br&am= > >>p;gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for
> >>=A0>>>the Intern=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his > question?&lt;br&= > >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for
> >>=A0>>>example, they di=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They > can= > >>not explain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I > would s= > >>tart a new thread &amp;quot;What do
> >>=A0>>>we want f=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>or the > Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not > sure i= > >>f I should do this.
> >>=A0>>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;Cheers, > &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt= > >>;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&= > >>gt;&lt;blockquote
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8e= > >>=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px > solid
> >>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things > abou= > >>t IP (and the E2E
> >>=A0>>>argument(s))&lt;br&=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really > hard t= > >>o change the problem it
> >>=A0>>>solves&lt;br&=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still > doesn&= > >>;amp;#39;t solve, whichever
> >>=A0>>>version you c=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not > IPv5:)= > >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive > &amp;lt;&= > >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>: 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net= > >>">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"> 50589DCC.203= > >>0808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net > </a>&quot; >>> > >>=A0>>>tar=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<= > >>a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: 50589DCC.2030808 at dcr= > >>ocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"= > >>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net > </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,= > >> Dave Crocker
> >>=A0>>>typed:&lt=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;= > >>div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;mailto:<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae= > >>C2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: 58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tF= > >>cP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c > ">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmai= > >>l.c=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>om"> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF= > >>cP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"> > 58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.co= > >>m</a>&quot;
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot=3D
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto: XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw= > >>O%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m > ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2= > >>A at m=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">ail.gmail.com"> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2X= > >>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com > ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@= > >>mail.gmail.com</a>&=3D
> >> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, > Par&lt;br&gt;= > >><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
> >>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant > prior=3D3D<= > >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers > were g= > >>iven)&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
> >>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), > it=3D3D<br&g= > >>t;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not > relevant.&lt;br= > >>&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly
> >>=A0>>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;in the broader sense of whether
> >>=A0>>>this thread=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope > of&lt;br&gt;&= > >>lt;br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;being, constructive, it was not
> >>=A0>>>relevant...=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg
> >>=A0>>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= > >>;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http:=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>// target=3D"_blank">= > >>bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank"> http://bbiw.= > >>net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot;
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_b=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a > href=3D3D" >>ef=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://bbiw.net"= > >> target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&lt=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt= > >>;/div&gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt= > >>;font
> > >>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am= > >>p;gt;=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 > =3D3DA0jon&lt;b= > >>r&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= > >>;
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= > > >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&am= > >>p;=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;&lt;br > clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot= > >>;&gt;&lt;span
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;= > >>font
> > >>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am= > >>p;gt;-=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a > href=3D3D3D&qu= > >>ot;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D" target= > >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s" tar=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D"_blank"> href=3D"http://= > >>www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s > </a= > >>>=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" hre= > >>f=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org > "
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://cience.or= > >>g" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>uot; > target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&= > >>;gt;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D" target= > >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target=3D"_blank">= > >>cience.org"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.conte= > >>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-based-science.or= > >>g</a>&lt;/=3D
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br&g= > >>t;
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= > > >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br> >>> > >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;= > >>&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br
> >>=A0>>>clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- > &l= > >>t;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http://=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>www.c" > target=3D3D"_blank"> >>href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c > </a>=3D3D<= > >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" hre= > >>f=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://ontent-based= > >>-science.org"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target= > >>=3D"_blank">tent-based-science.org</a>&quot; > target=3D3D3D&am= > >>p;quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D" http://www.content-based-s= > >>cienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.conte= > >>nt-b" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" hre= > >>f=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org"
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> ta= > >>rget=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091= > >>b8d--<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span > class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><fon= > >>t color=3D3D"#888888"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> > =A0>></font></span></blockquote><= > >>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- > <br&= > >>gt;<a href=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D" http://www.content-based-s= > >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org > "= > >>;
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"> http://www.cont"= > >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> target= > >>=3D"_blank">ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0cheers
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
> >>=A0>>
> >>
> >>
=A0cheers
> >>
> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>
> >>



--
href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.cont= > >>ent-based-science.org

> >> > >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/aedd422f/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 20:06:30 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 06:06:30 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: <491DAC06-DF33-4272-BEDD-BF705129C46A@anzus.com> References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> <491DAC06-DF33-4272-BEDD-BF705129C46A@anzus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:38 PM, Arun Welch wrote: > Having actually done disaster relief on a number of occasions I can > assure you that 72 hrs is extremely optimistic for anything beyond simple > triage even in first-world situations. Even when the relief has been > pre-staged it takes time to clear roads, etc. Helo's have very limited > carrying capacity. > > You don't question anything but sooooo sure about yourself. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashdeep_Aerostat We also have aiplanes, drop many many satellite phones to the disaster area. They are too cheaper than bombs. This is an education problem. > ...arun > > > > On Sep 19, 2012, at 4:40 AM, Pars Mutaf wrote: > > Sorry I don't believe this. I continue to question everything. > > I don't believe that there is a 72 hours delay. We have helicopters, etc. > If there is an > unacceptable delay, the right approach is to invest on decreasing this > delay because > communication is not the only problem in a disasters scenario. People need > food, water, > etc. > > Do some meditation and ask yourself the *real reason of these > publications*. It took > me 5 years to see the naked truth. > > > On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >> If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters, >> you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services >> arrive is approximately 72 hours. >> >> A ver good text if you want a summary of many >> real world disasters is this book >> >> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075 >> >> The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN) >> is better than nothing. >> >> vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks >> are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data >> _along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to >> deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now. >> >> of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything, >> except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and >> told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led >> to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone >> to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know >> anything >> >> In missive < >> CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail. >> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >> >> >> >> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>wrote: >> >> >> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in >> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to >> >>> hand >> >>> >> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan, >> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed >> >>> >> >>> >> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. >> >> >> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. >> >>> >> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario >> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. >> >> >> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great >> >>> target for the other side >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research, >> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just >> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big >> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges. >> >>> >> >>> >> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the >> >>infrastructure >> >>network. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> your move, sunshine. >> >>> >> >>> In missive < >> CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail. >> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >> >>> >> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> >> >> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >> >>> >> >> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>> >>wrote: >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA >> Packet >> >>> radio >> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, >> vehicular >> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for >> >>> anything >> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all >> communications, >> >>> not the >> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" >> wrote: >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this >> question? >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is >> used >> >>> for. >> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" >> but I >> >>> am >> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> Cheers, >> >>> >>>> Pars >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s)) >> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves >> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose >> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker >> typed: >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < >> >>> >>>>> >> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >> >>> Par >> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >> >>> >>>>> >>> >> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work >> (many >> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) >> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is >> not >> >>> relevant. >> >>> >>>>> >>> >> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or >> has any >> >>> hope >> >>> >>>>> of >> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >>d/ >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >>-- >> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> cheers >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> jon >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> -- >> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>-- >> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>> >> >> > >> > > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/7a727793/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Wed Sep 19 20:15:05 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 06:15:05 +0300 Subject: [e2e] 72 hours In-Reply-To: <5059E5DF.5050504@dcrocker.net> References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> <5059E5DF.5050504@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: 72 hours is not an issue, we can decrease it. The real issue is: MANET doesn't work. On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > On 9/19/2012 7:04 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > >> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters >> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for >> the 3 days before more resources arrive. >> > > > I've been spending time in my local Red Cross chapter for awhile. > > FWIW, while 72 hours is the official number, folks teaching the Red Cross > classes almost invariably advise doing preparation for 5-7 days. Given a > liter of water per person per day, that's an example of a very large > difference in planning and provisioning. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/ed1d13bf/attachment-0001.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Wed Sep 19 21:28:13 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 05:28:13 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: why don't you go away and read some of the work on delay and disruption tolerant networking, please. theres a large body of work now in this space, designed to cope with exactly these problems which occur with any network technology when you have link and node outages or intermittent connectivity - it came from several origins, but speaks directly to the problem that in some scenarios (deep space, oceanographic survey nets, and disaster scenarios) you will not have a reliable infrastructure, whatever technology you use whether its drones, blimps, ad hoc/opportunistic wireless nets built out of phones and laptops, whatever - there is an irtf wg, there is running code (actualyl quite a few different implementations) and deployments - see http://www.dtnrg.org/wiki for a lot of links many natural geo-distributions of nodes will have a power law of density- whatever radio you use, there will be hops that are just too long and there will be areas where the interference/contention will be high, from time to time (nodes move about so this isn't a constant factor, and using adaptive power and clever MAC protoocls we can mitigate some of these problems, but you get disconnection and disruption) in these systems you have clusters of connectivity and areas with poor connectivity - you have routing and traffic management algorithms that manage this dynamically - it is scenario dependenet exactly what are the best cluster manangement, routing and traffic management schemes there's some clever stuff in detecting which scenario you are in and learning (in a decentralised way) what the parameters of the scenario are its clear when you consider it for more than a second, that a cloud of nodes with radio, is not a simple graph, and modeling it as a set of fully connected partitioned sub-graphs is a poor model for resource allocation/connectivity management there was some very nice work at Delft a while back on this (but there's quite a lot elsewhere too) now I think we should all go fly a kite http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2FVLQrvUik or whatever floats your boat and isn't dangerous In missive , Pars Mutaf typed: >>--20cf307abd912fff2004ca190509 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Jon Crowcroft >>wrote: >> >>> the goal is to have less people die - our s/w works in existing >>> phones - having it deploy will cost zero (unlike ballons) and >>> saving more than zero lives is quite a good achievement for >>> somethign costing zero, but it also delivers a situational >>> awareness to the emergency services when they eventually arrive >>> >> >>Well actually MANET is dangerous. Someone should inform the red cross >>that it is not really a solution so that they think about real solutions. >> >>You still don't answer my question about network partitions. >> >>We are talking about human life here cost is not an issue. Billions of >>dollars >>are spent for the army, you worry about balloon cost? This is not a research >>problem this is an education problem. >> >> >> >>> meanwhile, back on discrete IP, the problem you have to solve when >>> you have a set of domains running different protocols, is a system >>> tp provide routing between translation points - this is something >>> we did before the internet was called the internet - back in 1980, >>> there were several different protocol families in the world - e.g. >>> tthe public and academic packet switched networks running the X.25 >>> network ayer protocol, networks running DECNET, nets running SNA >>> and so on - so we design protocoll translaters - and we deisnged a >>> name based scheme to provide mapping from application layer down >>> to transport, to beable to name the "nexthop" in the multiprotocol >>> route (the ideas in this, Yellow Book Transport Service and name >>> based route construction is visible in the two ideas I mentioned, >>> Paul Francis' IPNL and Ran Atkinson's work on ILNP - I encourage >>> you to have a look at those, as they speak to the original >>> document you circulated...and fill in a lot of details on how to >>> build such a system. >>> >>> >> >>20 years ago we didn't have the IP address shortage problem. I solve this >>problem. >> >>There is no scuh thing as lucky design, like I did this 20 years ago for >>problem X we can >>use it now for problem Y. There is no such thing. >> >>You were trying to solve other problems. >> >>I am trying to solve a different problem. >> >> >>> >>> >>> In missive >> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity >>> >>> >>> >>> i dont. >>> >>> >>> >>> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones >>> >>> running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are >>> >>> and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days... >>> >>> >>> >>> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and >>> >>> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see >>> >>> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage), >>> >>> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing >>> with >>> >>> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind.... >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot >>> >>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> something mon golfier frere hasn't >>> >>> >>> >>> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of >>> who is >>> >>> where and what resources are still working would be good >>> >>> >>> >>> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup >>> diasters >>> >>> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were >>> looters) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In missive , John Day typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a >>> big >>> >>> >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters. >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>> >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in >>> >>> >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply >>> >>> >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset, >>> >>> >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters >>> >>> >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for >>> >>> >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also >>> >>> >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness >>> >>> >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find >>> >>> >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide >>> >>> >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to >>> >>> >>>optimse resoruce allocation. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>the balloons are visible here >>> >>> >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/ >>> >>> >>>if you clock and drag far enough along... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>In missive >>> >>> >> >>> >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>> >>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been >>> studied >>> >>> in >>> >>> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they >>> have to >>> >>> >>> >>> hand >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, >>> >>> japan, >>> >>> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you >>> >>> desribed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course. >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them. >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario >>> >>> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network. >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to >>> >>> work. >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a >>> >>> great >>> >>> >>> >>> target for the other side >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really >>> >>> research, >>> >>> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They >>> can >>> >>> just >>> >>> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care. >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be >>> a big >>> >>> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under >>> bridges. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the >>> >>> >>> >>infrastructure >>> >>> >>> >>network. >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> your move, sunshine. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In missive >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See: >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>> >>> >>wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist >>> since >>> >>> ARPA Packet >>> >>> >>> >>> radio >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, >>> >>> vehicular >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by >>> >>> definition, for >>> >>> >>> >>> anything >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all >>> >>> communications, >>> >>> >>> >>> not the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" < >>> pars.mutaf at gmail.com> >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft < >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask >>> this >>> >>> question? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves >>> what >>> >>> it is used >>> >>> >>> >>> for. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the >>> >>> >>>Internet" but I >>> >>> >>> >>> am >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Pars >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E >>> argument(s)) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it >>> solves >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version >>> you >>> >>> choose >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave >>> Crocker >>> >>> typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive < >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, >>> >>> >>> >>> Par >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior >>> >>> work (many >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon >>> Crowcroft), it >>> >>> is not >>> >>> >>> >>> relevant. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has >>> been, >>> >>> >>>or has any >>> >>> >>> >>> hope >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> of >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>-- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:

>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html



>> >>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>quote"> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><>> >>> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quote" >>> >>> >>> >>> style= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>

Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist >>> since >>> >>> >>>ARPA Packet >>> >>> >>> >>> rad= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery >>> networks, >>> >>> vehicular >>> >>> >>> >>> networ= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.

>>> >>> >>> >>> >>

The internet isn't for just one >> >>> http://thing.it" >>> >>> >>> >>> target= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for >>> anything we >>> >>> can >>> >>> >>> >>> imagine and= >>> >>> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the >>> >>> intersection >>> >>> >>> >>> of o= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.

>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>
On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, >>> "Pars >>> >>> >>>Mutaf" >>> >>> >>> >>> <= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>;>> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>.com> wrote:
>> >>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> >>> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>

On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 >>> at >>> >>> >>>7:17 PM, Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> Cro= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>wcroft <>> >>> >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = >>> >>> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >>> >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px >>> >>> >>> >>> #cc= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser >>> >>> syndrome
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)

No >>> I >>> >>> didn't >>> >>> >>> >>> chang= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>e the problem:

What do we want for the Internet? >>> Did >>> >>> we really >>> >>> >>> >>> ask t= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>his question?

Take MANET for example, they did >>> not ask >>> >>> >>> >>> themselves wh= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>
I would start a new thread "What do we want for >>> the >>> >>> >>> >>> Internet"= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. >>>

Cheers, >>> >>> >>> >>>
Pars
=A0<= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>br>
>> >>> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >>> >>> >>> >>> 0.8e= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E >>> argument(s))
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it >>> solves
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version >>> you >>> >>> choose
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>In missive <>> >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" >>> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave >>> Crocker >>> >>> typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>

>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <>> >>> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> >>> >, >>> >>> >>> >>> Par
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read >>> the >>> >>> relevant >>> >>> >>> >>> prior= >>> >>> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by >>> Jon >>> >>> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it= >>> >>> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread >>> has >>> >>> >>>been, or has >>> >>> >>> >>> any= >>> >>> >>> >>> >> hope of
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not >>> relevant...
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0>> target=3D"_blank"> >>> >>> bbiw.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>r> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
=A0cheers
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>


>> clear=3D"all">>> >>> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>b">
--
>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>> >>>
<= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>


--
>> >>> href=3D" >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.c= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= >>> >>> >>> >>> >>e.org

>>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d-- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>-- >>> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28 >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, >>> Jon >>> >>> >>>Crowcroft = >>> >>> >>> >><>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> >>> target= >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> >>> >>>wrote:
>> >>> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >>> .8ex;border-left:1px >>> >>> >>>#ccc soli= >>> >>> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been >>> studied >>> >>> in
>>> >>> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they >>> have >>> >>> to
>>> >>> >>> >>hand
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, >>> >>> japan,
>>> >>> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you >>> >>> desribed
>>> >>> >>> >>

Preparing the balloons is not the >>> >>> >>>users' task= >>> >>> >>> >> of course.

Organizations like red cross will prepare >>> >>> >>>them.

= >>> >>> >>> >>=A0
>> >>> >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e= >>> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>> >>> >>> >>


MANET may not work for isolated >>> >>> >>>users in a di= >>> >>> >>> >>saster scenario
because they are too far away from the >>> rest >>> >>> >>>of the netw= >>> >>> >>> >>ork.

So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low >>> >>> >>>probability to= >>> >>> >>> >> work.
>>> >>> >>> >>
=A0
>> >>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = >>> >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a >>> >>> great
>>> >>> >>> >>target for the other side


I >>> >>> >>>personally do not = >>> >>> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,
because >>> they >>> >>> >>>do obscur= >>> >>> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just
use the >>> most >>> >>> >>>expensive= >>> >>> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care.
>>> >>> >>> >>
=A0
>> >>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt = >>> >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a >>> >>> big
>>> >>> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under >>> bridges.
>>> >>> >>> >>

Vehicular networks are >>> *unnecessarily >>> >>> >>>dangerous*.= >>> >>> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure >>> >>> >>>
network.

=A0
>> >>> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >>> >>> >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg= >>> >>> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>your move, sunshine.
>>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st= >>> >>> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>> >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd= >>> >>> >>> >>ing-left:1ex"> >>> >>> >>> >>In missive >>> >>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma= >>> >>> >>> >>il.
>>> >>> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>> >>
=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms= >>> >>> >>> >>g12602.html" >>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c= >>> >>> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@= >>> >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases >>> >>> >exist since AR= >>> >>> >>> >>PA Packet radio
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery >>> >>> >>>networks, veh= >>> >>> >>> >>icular
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad >>> deployed.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one >> >>> >>>href=3D"http://thing= >>> >>> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it is, by definition, for >>> >>> anything
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union >>> of >>> >>> >>>all communi= >>> >>> >>> >>cations, not the
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one >>> technology.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" >>> >>> >>><>> >>> >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com> >>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon >>> Crowcroft >>> >>> <
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc= >>> >>> >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as >>> >>> the
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for >>> >>> >>>you" pos= >>> >>> >>> >>er syndrome
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a >>> workable >>> >>> >>>solution,<= >>> >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes >>> the
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we >>> >>> >>>really ask thi= >>> >>> >>> >>s question?
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask >>> >>> >>>themselves wha= >>> >>> >>> >>t it is used for.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do >>> we >>> >>> >>>want for th= >>> >>> >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and >>> the >>> >>> >>>E2E argume= >>> >>> >>> >>nt(s))
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change >>> the >>> >>> >>>problem it = >>> >>> >>> >>solves
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, >>> >>> >>>whichever vers= >>> >>> >>> >>ion you choose
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d= >>> >>> >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave >>> Crocker >>> >>> typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon >>> >>> >>>Crowcroft wrot= >>> >>> >>> >>e:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> >> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%= >>> >>> >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X= >>> >>> >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I >>> >>> >>>encourage you to= >>> >>> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 >>> >>> >>>pointer was give= >>> >>> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly >>> relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of >>> >>> >>>whether this thr= >>> >>> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was >>> >>> >>>not relevant= >>> >>> >>> >>...
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg >>> >>> InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0>> http://bbiw.net" >>> >>> target= >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> --
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target= >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blan= >>> >>> >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>
=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. >>> >>> >>>See:<br><br><a hr= >>> >>> >>> >>ef=3D3D">> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w= >>> >>> >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">>> >>> >>>href=3D= >>> >>> >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" >>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma= >>> >>> >>> >>il-arch=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>= >>> >>> >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>quote">
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft >>> >>> >>><span dir=3D3= >>> >>> >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >>> >>> >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" >>> >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon= >>> >>> >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>.>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk<= >>> >>> >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote >>> >>> >>>class=3D3D"= >>> >>> >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc >>> >>> >>>solid;padding-= >>> >>> >>> >>left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use >>> cases >>> >>> >>>exist sinc= >>> >>> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery >>> >>> >>>networks, vehic= >>> >>> >>> >>ular networ=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad >>> deployed.</p>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one >>> <a >>> >>> >>>href=3D3D= >>> >>> >>> >>">> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it&quo= >>> >>> >>> >>t; target=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>> http://thing.it" >>> >>> >>>target=3D= >>> >>> >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for >>> anything >>> >>> >>>we can imag= >>> >>> >>> >>ine and=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, >>> not >>> >>> >>>the inters= >>> >>> >>> >>ection of o=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 >>> Sep >>> >>> >>>2012 17:4= >>> >>> >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.= >>> >>> >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com" >>> >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m= >>> >>> >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br >>> >>> >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q= >>> >>> >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 >>> >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s= >>> >>> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div >>> >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= >>> >>> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span >>> >>> >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= >>> >>> >>> >>3D"mailto:>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@= >>> >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft= >>> >>> >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>> >>> </a>&gt;</span>= >>> >>> >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >>> >>> >>>style=3D3D"margin:= >>> >>> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as >>> the<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for >>> >>> >>>you&quot; poser sy= >>> >>> >>> >>ndrome<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable >>> >>> solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes >>> the<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the >>> >>> >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div= >>> >>> >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want >>> for >>> >>> >>>the Intern= >>> >>> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for >>> >>> >>>example, they di= >>> >>> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. >>> <br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread >>> &quot;What do >>> >>> >>>we want f= >>> >>> >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. >>> >>> >>><br><br>= >>> >>> >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote >>> >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= >>> >>> >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid >>> >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&= >>> >>> >>> >>gt;
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E >>> >>> >>>argument(s))<br&= >>> >>> >>> >>gt;
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it >>> >>> >>>solves<br&= >>> >>> >>> >>gt;
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever >>> >>> >>>version you c= >>> >>> >>> >>hoose<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto= >>> >>> >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net >>> >>> " >>> >>> >>>tar= >>> >>> >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>blank">>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= >>> >>> >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave >>> Crocker >>> >>> >>>typed:<= >>> >>> >>> >>;br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon >>> >>> >>>Crowcroft wrote:&= >>> >>> >>> >>lt;br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive >>> &lt;<a >>> >>> >>>href=3D3D= >>> >>> >>> >>"mailto:>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-= >>> >>> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= >>> >>> >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" >>> >>> >>>target=3D3D"= >>> >>> >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m= >>> >>> >>> >>ail.gmail.com"> >>> >>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com&= >>> >>> >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf >>> >>> typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 >>> >>> >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e= >>> >>> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 >>> >>> >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point= >>> >>> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly >>> >>> >>>relevant.<br><= >>> >>> >>> >>br> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of >>> whether >>> >>> >>>this thread= >>> >>> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was >>> not >>> >>> >>>relevant...= >>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave >>> Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg >>> >>> >>>InternetWorking<br>= >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">> >>> >>>href=3D"http:= >>> >>> >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" >>> >>> >>>target=3D3D"_b= >>> >>> >>> >>lank">>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net<= >>> >>> >>> >>;/a><b=3D
>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>r>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><span><font >>> >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>= >>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&= >>> >>> >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span >>> >>> >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font >>> >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-= >>> >>> >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D">> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar= >>> >>> >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org&q= >>> >>> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>> >>> >>cience.org" >>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>> >>> >>> >>a><br><=3D
>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>br>
>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br >>> >>> >>>clear=3D3D"= >>> >>> >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D">> >>> >>>href=3D"http://= >>> >>> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">on= >>> >>> >>> >>tent-based-science.org" >>> >>> target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" >>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= >>> >>> >>> >>ased-scienc=3D
>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&l= >>> >>> >>> >>t;br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0cheers
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>



-- >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" >>> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>> >>> >>> >>ent-based-science.org

>>> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28-- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >>-- >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >>> >> >>> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> >> >>> >>

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon >>> Cro= >>> >>wcroft <>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" = >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >>> wrote:
>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px >>> #cc= >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
>>> >>
>>> >>i dont.
>>> >>
>>> >>lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
>>> >>running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
>>> >>and send hashtag data =A0with sensor net is about 7 days...
>>> >>
>>> >>coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
>>> >>landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
>>> >>for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),
>>> >>it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing >>> with
>>> >>the actual human movement/location patterns in >>> mind....
>> >>v>

You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, >>> you ca= >>> >>nnot
solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. >>>
>>> >>
=A0
>> 0pt = >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>> >>
>>> >>something mon golfier frere hasn't
>>> >>
>>> >>being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who >>> is>> >>r> >>> >>where and what resources are still working would be good
>>> >>
>>> >>i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup >>> diasters>> >>> >>> >>(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were >>> looters)>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day >>> typed:
>>> >>

>>> >>=A0>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. =A0Which seems >>> lik= >>> >>e a big
>>> >>=A0>>assumption. =A0Not much of a disaster if you still have >>> power.>> >>r> >>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell >>> towers)= >>> >> in
>>> >>=A0>>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are >>> simply
>>> >>=A0>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the >>> skills= >>> >>et,
>>> >>=A0>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during >>> dis= >>> >>asters
>>> >>=A0>>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless >>> net = >>> >>for
>>> >>=A0>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network >>> could = >>> >>also
>>> >>=A0>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational >>> awaren= >>> >>ess
>>> >>=A0>>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief >>> teams= >>> >> find
>>> >>=A0>>>where self help groups existed with resources and where >>> to p= >>> >>rovide
>>> >>=A0>>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system >>> for ho= >>> >>w to
>>> >>=A0>>>optimse resoruce allocation.
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>the balloons are visible here
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> http://x= >>> >>kcd.com/1110/
>>> >>=A0>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>In missive >>> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdc= >>> >>z+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
>>> >>=A0>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; >>> charset=3DISO-8859-1>> >>r> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon >>> Crowcroft<= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >>> >>">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of >>> whu= >>> >>ch have been studied in
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do >>> wit= >>> >>h resources they have to
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> hand
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> they may be spread over a large area >>> (e.g a= >>> >>ll of indonesia, japan,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> california) and not be prepared with >>> giant = >>> >>ballons as you desribed
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' >>> tas= >>> >>k of course.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare >>> them.<= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> what many DO have is phones and >>> laptops.>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of >>> these.<= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a >>> disas= >>> >>ter scenario
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are too far away from the rest >>> of t= >>> >>he network.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very >>> low = >>> >>probability to work.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your >>> giant= >>> >> ballon idea is a great
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target for the other side
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. >>> This is= >>> >> not really research,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they do obscure things that we do >>> not ev= >>> >>en know. They can just
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones. >>> They do= >>> >> not care.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a >>> giant= >>> >> ballon would be a big
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> drag, especially when you go through >>> tunnel= >>> >>s and under bridges.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily >>> dangerous*= >>> >>. Just use the
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>infrastructure
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>network.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> your move, sunshine.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> In missive
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail >>> = >>> >>.gmail.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d>> >>r> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; >>> charse= >>> >>t=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough >>> Jon. = >>> >>See:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> http://www.ietf.org/m= >>> >>ail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.i= >>> >>etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at >>> 10:17 AM= >>> >>, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><>> jon.crowcr= >>> >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, >>> sur= >>> >>e. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> radio
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield >>> networks,= >>> >> disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some >>> actually in= >>> >> use ad deployed.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't >>> for = >>> >>just one thing.it >>> is, by = >>> >>definition, for
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> anything
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and >>> realize.= >>> >>..it is the union of all communications,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> not the
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one >>> notion = >>> >>with one technology.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, >>> "= >>> >>;Pars Mutaf" <>> ">pars.mutaf at gm= >>> >>ail.com> wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, >>> 2012 at= >>> >> 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> >> Jon.C= >>> >>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we >>> use= >>> >>d to talk about as the
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my >>> problem is= >>> >> too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, >>> whenever= >>> >> you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of >>> the p= >>> >>roblem) changes the
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the >>> ass= >>> >>umptions)
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't >>> change = >>> >>the problem:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for >>> the= >>> >> Internet? Did we really ask this question?
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for >>> example,= >>> >> they did not ask themselves what it is used
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> for.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot >>> explain.>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new >>> thr= >>> >>ead "What do we want for the
>>> >>=A0>>>Internet" =A0but I
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> am
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I >>> should do= >>> >> this.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice >>> thi= >>> >>ngs about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is >>> reall= >>> >>y hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way it >>> still d= >>> >>oesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, >>> maybe no= >>> >>t IPv5:)
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive >>> <>> >>ref=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"> >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net<= >>> >>/a>>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On >>> 9/18/= >>> >>2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> >>> In = >>> >>missive <
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tF= >>> >>cP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5Pg= >>> >>T+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> >>> s M= >>> >>utaf typed:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> >>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0= >>> >> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were >>> given= >>> >>)
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0= >>> >> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> >>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> >>> it = >>> >>is exactly relevant.
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in >>> the b= >>> >>roader sense of whether this thread has been,
>>> >>=A0>>>or has any
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> hope
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> of
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> >>> =A0>>being, c= >>> >>onstructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> >>> =A0>>d/
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> >>> =A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> >>> =A0Dave= >>> >> Crocker
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> >>> =A0Bran= >>> >>denburg InternetWorking
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> >>> =A0>> >>ref=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> --
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> >> http://www.c= >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc= >>> >>e.org
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> http://www.content-ba= >>> >>sed-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>> = >>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d>> >>r> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; >>> charset= >>> >>=3DISO-8859-1
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: >>> quote= >>> >>d-printable
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough >>> Jon. = >>> >>See:<br><br><a href=3D3D"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/m= >>> >>sg12602.html">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D= >>> >>" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h= >>> >>tml</a><br><br><br><br><div
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>quote">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at >>> 10:17 AM= >>> >>, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr= >>> >>=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:>> href=3D"m= >>> >>ailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>> "
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcr= >>> >>oft at cl=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.>> ta= >>> >>rget=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> >>> wrote:<br&g= >>> >>t;<blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> style=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 >>> .8ex;bor= >>> >>der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET >>> example,= >>> >> sure. Many use cases exist since
>>> >>=A0>>>ARPA Packet
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> rad=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield >>> networks, d= >>> >>isaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> networ=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad >>> dep= >>> >>loyed.</p>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet >>> isn&#3= >>> >>9;t for just one <a href=3D3D">> target=3D= >>> >>"_blank">http://thing.it"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>> >>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by >>> defi= >>> >>nition, for anything we can
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> imagine and=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union >>> of al= >>> >>l communications, not the intersection
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> of o=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one >>> technology.&l= >>> >>t;/p>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div >>> class=3D3D"gmail_qu= >>> >>ote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars
>>> >>=A0>>>Mutaf&quot;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> &lt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>> = >>> >>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf= >>> >>@gmail=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; >>> wrote:<= >>> >>;br type=3D3D"attribution"><blockquote
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e" >>> style=3D3D"margin:0= >>> >> 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div >>> clas= >>> >>s=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at
>>> >>=A0>>>7:17 PM, Jon
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Cro=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span >>> dir=3D3D"lt= >>> >>r">&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.u= >>> >>k">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">= >>> >>; >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>> >>a></a>&gt;</span>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>kquote >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quo= >>> >>te" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
>>> >>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> #cc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>c >>> solid;padding-left:1ex"&g= >>> >>t;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk >>> abo= >>> >>ut as the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too >>> hard= >>> >> even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you >>> offer a = >>> >>workable solution,<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem) >>> chang= >>> >>es the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the >>> assumptions)<= >>> >>br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> chang=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e the >>> problem:<br><br&g= >>> >>t;What do we want for the Internet? Did we really
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> ask t=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>his >>> question?<br><br>= >>> >>;Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> themselves wh=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They >>> cannot e= >>> >>xplain. <br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a >>> new th= >>> >>read &quot;What do we want for the
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I >>> sho= >>> >>uld do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>br></div><blockquote= >>> >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt >>> 0pt
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> 0.8e=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,= >>> >>204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about >>> IP = >>> >>(and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to >>> cha= >>> >>nge the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still >>> doesn&#39;= >>> >>t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not >>> IPv5:)<b= >>> >>r>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a >>> href=3D= >>> >>3D"mailto:>> ">50589DCC.20= >>> >>30808 at dcrocker.net"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>blank">>> href=3D"mailto= >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net >>> </a>= >>> >>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>><div><div><br>= >>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On >>> 9/18/201= >>> >>2 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In= >>> >> missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> 58iDwO%252BV2X= >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> ">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmai= >>> >>l.com"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-= >>> >>s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWf= >>> >>M58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1t= >>> >>FcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s = >>> >>Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> prior=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were >>> given)= >>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> is not >>> relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it= >>> >> is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the >>> broa= >>> >>der sense of whether this thread has
>>> >>=A0>>>been, or has
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> any=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, >>> cons= >>> >>tructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; >>> =3DA0Dave = >>> >>Crocker<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; >>> =3DA0Brand= >>> >>enburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; >>> =3DA0<a= >>> >> href=3D3D" >>> http://bbiw.n= >>> >>et" target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://bbiw.net" t= >>> >>arget=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><b=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>r>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0che= >>> >>ers<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span><font >>> color=3D3D&= >>> >>quot;#888888"><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>></font></span></b= >>> >>lockquote></div><br><br >>> clear=3D3D"all"><= >>> >>span
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>b"><font >>> color=3D3D&q= >>> >>uot;#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >> targ= >>> >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> ta= >>> >>rget=3D"_blank">cience.org" >>> target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.co= >>> >>ntent-based-science.org
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><br><=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>></font></span></b= >>> >>lockquote></div>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>></blockquote></div>&= >>> >>lt;br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- >>> <br><a h= >>> >>ref=3D3D"
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >> target=3D"_blank">= >>> >>http://www.c=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> http://ontent-based-s= >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org" >>> target=3D3= >>> >>D"_blank">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >> http://www.content-based-scienc"= >>> >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">e.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> >>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--= >>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0cheers
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> http://www.content-based-science.org"= >>> >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; >>> charset=3DISO-8859-1>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: >>> quoted-printable
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On = >>> >>Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
>>> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft =3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span >>> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<= >>> >>a href=3D3D"mailto:>> ">Jon.C= >>> >>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>> Jon= >>> >>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>> </a>&gt;&l= >>> >>t;/span>
>>> >>=A0>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >>> style=3D3D&qu= >>> >>ot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>> >>=A0>>>#ccc soli=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of >>> whuch ha= >>> >>ve been studied in<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do >>> with r= >>> >>esources they have to<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>hand<br>
>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g >>> all of= >>> >> indonesia, japan,<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant >>> ballo= >>> >>ns as you desribed<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= >>> >>t;Preparing the balloons is not the
>>> >>=A0>>>users&#39; task=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>> of course. >>> <br><br>Organizations li= >>> >>ke red cross will prepare
>>> >>=A0>>>them.<br><br>=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote >>> class=3D3D"= >>> >>gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt
>>> >>=A0>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);padding= >>> >>-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>what many DO have is phones and >>> laptops.<br&g= >>> >>t;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>manets can be usefully built out of >>> these.<br= >>> >>>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= >>> >>t;<br>MANET may not work for isolated
>>> >>=A0>>>users in a di=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are >>> too f= >>> >>ar away from the rest
>>> >>=A0>>>of the netw=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not >>> only us= >>> >>eless, it has a very low
>>> >>=A0>>>probability to=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>> work.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote >>> class= >>> >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);pad= >>> >>ding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant >>> ball= >>> >>on idea is a great<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>target for the other >>> side<br></blockquo= >>> >>te><div><br><br>I
>>> >>=A0>>>personally do not =3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really >>> research= >>> >>,<br>because they
>>> >>=A0>>>do obscur=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can >>> just= >>> >> <br>use the most
>>> >>=A0>>>expensive=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. >>> <br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote >>> class= >>> >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >>> rgb(204,204,204);pad= >>> >>ding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant >>> ball= >>> >>on would be a big<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels >>> and= >>> >> under bridges.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g= >>> >>t;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
>>> >>=A0>>>dangerous*.=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>> Just use the infrastructure
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>network.<br><br>=3DA0</div><b= >>> >>lockquote class=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" >>> style=3D3D"mar= >>> >>gin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>> >>=A0>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>your move, sunshine.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div></div= >>> >>><div></div><blockquote
>>> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >>> 0.8ex;border-le= >>> >>ft:1px solid
>>> >>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ing-left:1ex">
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@ >>> = >>> >>mail.gma=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>il.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091= >>> >>b8d<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: >>> text/plain; c= >>> >>harset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div >>> class=3D3D"h5">= >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question >>> enough = >>> >>Jon. See:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D">> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w= >>> >>eb/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/= >>> >>web/manet/current/ms=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>g12602.html"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://www.ietf.= >>> >>org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail= >>> >>-archive/web/manet/c=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at >>> 10:= >>> >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam= >>> >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target=3D"_blank= >>> >>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET >>> exa= >>> >>mple, sure. Many use cases
>>> >>>exist since AR=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>PA Packet radio<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. >>> Battlefield = >>> >>networks, disaster recovery
>>> >>=A0>>>networks, veh=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>icular<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; >>> networks...some ac= >>> >>tually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet >>> isn&a= >>> >>mp;#39;t for just one <a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D">> target=3D"_blank">ht= >>> >>tp://thing=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.it" >>> target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by >>> defi= >>> >>nition, for anything<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine >>> and= >>> >> realize...it is the union of
>>> >>=A0>>>all communi=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>cations, not the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection >>> of on= >>> >>e notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 >>> 17:= >>> >>48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;
>>> >>=A0>>>&lt;<a href=3D3D=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"mailto:>> pars.mutaf at gmail.= >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com">>> pars.mutaf at gmail.c= >>> >>om">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On >>> Tue, Se= >>> >>p 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; >>> <a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam= >>> >>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> ">roft at cl.cam= >>> >>.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th= >>> >>is is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &a= >>> >>mp;quot;my problem is too hard even for
>>> >>=A0>>>you&quot; pos=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>er syndrome<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ba= >>> >>sically, whenever you offer a workable
>>> >>=A0>>>solution,<=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th= >>> >>e poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pr= >>> >>oblem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I >>> didn&= >>> >>amp;#39;t change the problem:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What >>> do we= >>> >> want for the Internet? Did we
>>> >>=A0>>>really ask thi=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>s question?<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take >>> MANET= >>> >> for example, they did not ask
>>> >>=A0>>>themselves wha=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t it is used for.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They >>> canno= >>> >>t explain.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I >>> would st= >>> >>art a new thread &quot;What do we
>>> >>=A0>>>want for th=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I >>> am<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not >>> sure i= >>> >>f I should do this.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; >>> Cheers,<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; >>> Pars<br= >>> >>>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on= >>> >>e of the nice things about IP (and the
>>> >>=A0>>>E2E argume=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>nt(s))<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is= >>> >> that it is really hard to change the
>>> >>=A0>>>problem it =3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>solves<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in= >>> >> a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,
>>> >>=A0>>>whichever vers=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ion you choose<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (w= >>> >>ell, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In= >>> >> missive &lt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> 50589DCC.2030808 at d">= >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at d=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target=3D"_blank"= >>> >>>crocker.net">>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker >>> typed:<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrot=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &l= >>> >>t;a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae= >>> >>C2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> 2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.= >>> >>gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXD= >>> >>ZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.c= >>> >>om">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, >>> Par<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I
>>> >>=A0>>>encourage you to=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>> read the relevant prior work >>> (many<br>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; po= >>> >>inters were given)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1
>>> >>=A0>>>pointer was give=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not >>> relevant.<br&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of
>>> >>=A0>>>whether this thr=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of= >>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was
>>> >>=A0>>>not relevant=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>...<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">> http://bbiw.net"= >>> >> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>> http://bbi= >>> >>w.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; = >>> >>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>> >>;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; >>> --<br&g= >>> >>t;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; >>> <a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D">> http://www.content-based-science.o= >>> >>rg" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org" >>> target= >>> >>=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>> http://www= >>> >>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-scie= >>> >>nce.org</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><= >>> >>br> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">> hre= >>> >>f=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.con= >>> >>tent-based-science.org"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blan=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>k">>> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>> </= >>> >>a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--2= >>> >>0cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: >>> text/html; ch= >>> >>arset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: = >>> >>quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question >>> enough = >>> >>Jon.
>>> >>=A0>>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a >>> hr=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D">> href= >>> >>=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D<= >>> >>/a>"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://w=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target=3D"_= >>> >>blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/curr= >>> >>ent/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>">> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch= >>> >>=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D >>> "
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://www.ietf.= >>> >>org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12= >>> >>602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div= >>> >> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<= >>> >>br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at >>> 10:= >>> >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>=A0>>>&lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&= >>> >>;lt;a hr=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:&= >>> >>lt;a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam= >>> >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>">>> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam= >>> >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a >>> href=3D3D">> >>ef=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk >>> "
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://cam.ac.uk= >>> >>" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; >>> wro= >>> >>te:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote
>>> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; >>> style=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0= >>> >> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> >>=A0>>>solid;padding-=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take >>> the M= >>> >>ANET example, sure. Many use cases
>>> >>=A0>>>exist sinc=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield >>> networ= >>> >>ks, disaster recovery
>>> >>=A0>>>networks, vehic=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in >>> use a= >>> >>d deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The >>> intern= >>> >>et isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D">> href=3D"http:/= >>> >>/thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://thing.it"= >>> >> target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t; target=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&= >>> >>;quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">> target=3D"_b= >>> >>lank">http://thing.it"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"_blank">>> http://thing.it= >>> >>" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by >>> definit= >>> >>ion, for anything
>>> >>=A0>>>we can imag=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ine and=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the >>> union = >>> >>of all communications, not
>>> >>=A0>>>the inters=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one >>> technolo= >>> >>gy.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div >>> class=3D3D3D&am= >>> >>p;quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep
>>> >>=A0>>>2012 17:4=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; >>> &a= >>> >>mp;lt=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a >>> href=3D3D3D&= >>> >>quot;mailto:<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> .">p= >>> >>ars.mutaf at gmail.=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>com">>> pars.mutaf at gmail.= >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot;
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&= >>> >>amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br
>>> >>=A0>>>type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote >>> class=3D3D3D&= >>> >>quot;gmail_quot=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot; >>> style=3D3D3D&am= >>> >>p;quot;margin:0 0 0
>>> >>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;b= >>> >>r&gt;&lt;div
>>> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon >>> Cro=3D3D&l= >>> >>t;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>dir=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt= >>> >>;a href=3D3D=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam= >>> >>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target=3D"_blank= >>> >>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_bla= >>> >>nk&quot;&gt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> ">Jon.C= >>> >>rowcroft=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>@>> target=3D"_blan= >>> >>k">cl.cam.ac.uk">>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">= >>> >>Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >>> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&= >>> >>lt;/span&gt=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>; >>> wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<b= >>> >>r>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote >>> class=3D3D3D&quo= >>> >>t;gmail_quote&quot;
>>> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px >>> #cc=3D3D<br>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c >>> solid;padding-left:1ex&am= >>> >>p;quot;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to >>> tal= >>> >>k about as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my >>> problem is= >>> >> too hard even for
>>> >>=A0>>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you >>> off= >>> >>er a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the >>> problem) = >>> >>changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&am= >>> >>p;lt;div=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I >>> didn&amp;#39;= >>> >>t chang=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the >>> problem:&lt;br&am= >>> >>p;gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for
>>> >>=A0>>>the Intern=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his >>> question?&lt;br&= >>> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for
>>> >>=A0>>>example, they di=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They >>> can= >>> >>not explain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I >>> would s= >>> >>tart a new thread &amp;quot;What do
>>> >>=A0>>>we want f=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>or the >>> Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not >>> sure i= >>> >>f I should do this.
>>> >>=A0>>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;Cheers, >>> &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt= >>> >>;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&= >>> >>gt;&lt;blockquote
>>> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >>> 0.8e= >>> >>=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px >>> solid
>>> >>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things >>> abou= >>> >>t IP (and the E2E
>>> >>=A0>>>argument(s))&lt;br&=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really >>> hard t= >>> >>o change the problem it
>>> >>=A0>>>solves&lt;br&=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still >>> doesn&= >>> >>;amp;#39;t solve, whichever
>>> >>=A0>>>version you c=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not >>> IPv5:)= >>> >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive >>> &amp;lt;&= >>> >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>:>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net= >>> >>">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">>> 50589DCC.203= >>> >>0808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net >>> </a>&quot;>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>tar=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<= >>> >>a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcr= >>> >>ocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"= >>> >>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net >>> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,= >>> >> Dave Crocker
>>> >>=A0>>>typed:&lt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;= >>> >>div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;mailto:<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae= >>> >>C2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> 58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tF= >>> >>cP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c >>> ">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmai= >>> >>l.c=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>om">>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF= >>> >>cP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"> >>> 58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.co= >>> >>m</a>&quot;
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br&= >>> >>gt;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw= >>> >>O%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m >>> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2= >>> >>A at m=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target=3D"_blan= >>> >>k">ail.gmail.com">>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2X= >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com >>> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@= >>> >>mail.gmail.com</a>&=3D
>>> >> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, >>> Par&lt;br&gt;= >>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
>>> >>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant >>> prior=3D3D<= >>> >>br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers >>> were g= >>> >>iven)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
>>> >>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), >>> it=3D3D<br&g= >>> >>t;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not >>> relevant.&lt;br= >>> >>&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly
>>> >>=A0>>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;in the broader sense of whether
>>> >>=A0>>>this thread=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope >>> of&lt;br&gt;&= >>> >>lt;br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;being, constructive, it was not
>>> >>=A0>>>relevant...=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg
>>> >>=A0>>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp= >>> >>;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http:=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>//>> target=3D"_blank">= >>> >>bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://bbiw.= >>> >>net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot;
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_b=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a >>> href=3D3D">> >>ef=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://bbiw.net"= >>> >> target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&lt=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt= >>> >>;/div&gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt= >>> >>;font
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>> >>p;gt;=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 >>> =3D3DA0jon&lt;b= >>> >>r&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= >>> >>> >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&am= >>> >>p;=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;&lt;br >>> clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot= >>> >>;&gt;&lt;span
>>> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;= >>> >>font
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>> >>p;gt;-=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a >>> href=3D3D3D&qu= >>> >>ot;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D">> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s" tar=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D"_blank">>> href=3D"http://= >>> >>www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s >>> </a= >>> >>>=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">> hre= >>> >>f=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org >>> "
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://cience.or= >>> >>g" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>uot; >>> target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&= >>> >>;gt;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D">> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target=3D"_blank">= >>> >>cience.org"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://www.conte= >>> >>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.content-based-science.or= >>> >>g</a>&lt;/=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br&g= >>> >>t;
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= >>> >>> >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;= >>> >>&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br
>>> >>=A0>>>clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- >>> &l= >>> >>t;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
>>> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http://=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>www.c" >>> target=3D3D"_blank">>> >>href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c >>> </a>=3D3D<= >>> >>br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">> hre= >>> >>f=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://ontent-based= >>> >>-science.org"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">tent-based-science.org</a>&quot; >>> target=3D3D3D&am= >>> >>p;quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D">> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>cienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://www.conte= >>> >>nt-b" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">> hre= >>> >>f=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org"
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> ta= >>> >>rget=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091= >>> >>b8d--<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span >>> class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><fon= >>> >>t color=3D3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> >>> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><= >>> >>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- >>> <br&= >>> >>gt;<a href=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D">> http://www.content-based-s= >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org >>> "= >>> >>;
>>> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>> http://www.cont"= >>> >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=3D
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> target= >>> >>=3D"_blank">ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0cheers
>>> >>=A0>>>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>> >>=A0>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
=A0cheers
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>>> >>
>>> >>



--
>> href= >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >>> http://www.cont= >>> >>ent-based-science.org

>>> >> >>> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee-- >>> >>> cheers >>> >>> jon >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>--20cf307abd912fff2004ca190509 >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Jon Cro= >>wcroft <>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= >>c solid;padding-left:1ex"> >>the goal is to have less people die - our s/w works in existing
>>phones - having it deploy will cost zero (unlike ballons) and
>>saving more than zero lives is quite a good achievement for
>>somethign costing zero, but it also delivers a situational
>>awareness to the emergency services when they eventually arrive
>uote>

Well actually MANET is dangerous. Someone should inform the r= >>ed cross
that it is not really a solution so that they think about real = >>solutions.
>>
You still don't answer my question about network partitions.
>r>We are talking about human life here cost is not an issue. Billions of do= >>llars
are spent for the army, you worry about balloon cost? This is not = >>a research
>>problem this is an education problem.

=A0
>gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20= >>4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >>meanwhile, back on discrete IP, the problem you have to solve when
>>you have a set of domains running different protocols, is a system
>>tp provide routing between translation points - this is something
>>we did before the internet was called the internet - back in 1980,
>>there were several different protocol families in the world - e.g.
>>tthe public and academic packet switched networks running the X.25
>>network ayer protocol, networks running DECNET, nets running SNA
>>and so on - so we design protocoll translaters - and we deisnged a
>>name based scheme to provide mapping from application layer down
>>to transport, to beable to name the "nexthop" in the multiprotoco= >>l
>>route (the ideas in this, Yellow Book Transport Service and name
>>based route construction is visible in the two ideas I mentioned,
>>Paul Francis' IPNL and Ran Atkinson's work on ILNP - I encourage>> >>you to have a look at those, as they speak to the original
>>document you circulated...and fill in a lot of details on how to
>>build such a system.
>>


20 years ago we didn't have the IP addres= >>s shortage problem. I solve this problem.

There is no scuh thing as= >> lucky design, like I did this 20 years ago for problem X we can
use it= >> now for problem Y. There is no such thing.
>>
You were trying to solve other problems.

I am trying to solve a= >> different problem.
=A0
>margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef= >>t:1ex"> >> >>
>>
>>In missive <CACQuieZsrj5i1XJoruVLam_O4cNYsk0ZU_OvbY_sG0WEx_r+og at mail.gma= >>il.
>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>
>>=A0>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>><Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> i dont.
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
>>=A0>>> running our modified twitter client to tell people where yo= >>u are
>>=A0>>> and send hashtag data =A0with sensor net is about 7 days...= >>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger mission= >>s and
>>=A0>>> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clust= >>ers (see
>>=A0>>> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage= >>),
>>=A0>>> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn = >>routing with
>>=A0>>> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you c= >>annot
>>=A0>>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply.
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> something mon golfier frere hasn't
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a= >> map of who is
>>=A0>>> where and what resources are still working would be good>> >>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent foll= >>owup diasters
>>=A0>>> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they = >>were looters)
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John D= >>ay typed:
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. = >>=A0Which seems like a big
>>=A0>>> =A0>>assumption. =A0Not much of a disaster if you sti= >>ll have power.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disa= >>sters.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many= >> as cell towers) in
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>all the areas where there might be a disaste= >>r are simply
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has ne= >>ither the skillset,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so l= >>udicrous.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of p= >>eople during disasters
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>will serve very well to build an opportunist= >>ic wireless net for
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organisin= >>g network could also
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and si= >>tuational awareness
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>input which when logged, would help the dias= >>ter relief teams find
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>where self help groups existed with resource= >>s and where to provide
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>help - it would support, essentially, a tria= >>ge system for how to
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>optimse resoruce allocation.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>the balloons are visible here
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>In missive
>>=A0>>> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at m= >>ail.gmail.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charse= >>t=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM= >>, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> in a typical disaster scena= >>rio, many of whuch have been studied
>>=A0>>> in
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> great detail, =A0people hav= >>e to make do with resources they have to
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> hand
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> they may be spread over a l= >>arge area (e.g all of indonesia,
>>=A0>>> japan,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> california) and not be prep= >>ared with giant ballons as you
>>=A0>>> desribed
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Preparing the balloons is not th= >>e users' task of course.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Organizations like red cross wil= >>l prepare them.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> what many DO have is phones= >> and laptops.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> manets can be usefully buil= >>t out of these.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>MANET may not work for isolated = >>users in a disaster scenario
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>because they are too far away fr= >>om the rest of the network.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it= >> has a very low probability to
>>=A0>>> work.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> in a military scenario i me= >>nion, your giant ballon idea is a
>>=A0>>> great
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> target for the other side>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>I personally do not argue for th= >>e army.. This is not really
>>=A0>>> research,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>because they do obscure things t= >>hat we do not even know. They can
>>=A0>>> just
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>use the most expensive satellite= >> phones. They do not care.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i= >> menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> drag, especially when you g= >>o through tunnels and under bridges.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecess= >>arily dangerous*. Just use the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>infrastructure
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>network.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> your move, sunshine.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> In missive
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHN= >>dt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa27= >>12b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: te= >>xt/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not quest= >>ion enough Jon. See:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> >nt/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ma= >>net/current/msg12602.html
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, = >>2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><>ailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MA= >>NET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
>>=A0>>> ARPA Packet
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> radio
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battl= >>efield networks, disaster recovery networks,
>>=A0>>> vehicular
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> networks...= >>some actually in use ad deployed.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> The interne= >>t isn't for just one thin= >>g.it is, by
>>=A0>>> definition, for
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> anything
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> we can imag= >>ine and realize...it is the union of all
>>=A0>>> communications,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> not the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> intersectio= >>n of one notion with one technology.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2= >>012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <>m">pars.mutaf at gmail.com>
>>=A0>>> wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue,= >> Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> >=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> w= >>rote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> thi= >>s is what we used to talk about as the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> &qu= >>ot;my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> bas= >>ically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> the= >> poser (of the problem) changes the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> pro= >>blem (or the assumptions)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> No I di= >>dn't change the problem:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> What do= >> we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this
>>=A0>>> question?
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MA= >>NET for example, they did not ask themselves what
>>=A0>>> it is used
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> for.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> They ca= >>nnot explain.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> I would= >> start a new thread "What do we want for the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>Internet" =A0but I
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> am
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> not sur= >>e if I should do this.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> one= >> of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> is = >>that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> in = >>a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
>>=A0>>> choose
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> (we= >>ll, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> In = >>missive <50589DCC.20308= >>08 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>> typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>> In missive <
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i= >>DwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Par
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>> s Mutaf typed:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior>> >>=A0>>> work (many
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> poi= >>nters were given)
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it>> >>=A0>>> is not
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> relevant.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>> it is exactly relevant.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>or has any
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> hope
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> of<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>d/
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>> =A0Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>>> =A0bbiw.net
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >>cheers
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0= >> =A0jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> --
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> >=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>ent-based-science.org
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>//www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based= >>-science.org
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa27= >>12b204ca091b8d
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: te= >>xt/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer= >>-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not quest= >>ion enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> >org/=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>mail-archive/web= >>/manet/current/msg12602.html">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> >org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ive/web/manet/cu= >>rrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><di= >>v
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>quote"><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, = >>2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> dir=3D3D"ltr">= >>&lt;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mai= >>lto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.u= >>k"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank&quo= >>t;>jon.crowcroft at cl=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.>://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>= >>; wrote:<br><blockquote
>>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> style=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margi= >>n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>=A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>Take th= >>e MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>ARPA Packet
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> rad=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlef= >>ield networks, disaster recovery networks,
>>=A0>>> vehicular
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> networ=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actual= >>ly in use ad deployed.</p>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>The int= >>ernet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> http://thing.= >>it"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blan= >>k">thing.it</a= >>> is, by definition, for anything we
>>=A0>>> can
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> imagine and=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is= >> the union of all communications, not the
>>=A0>>> intersection
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> of o=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with o= >>ne technology.</p>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D= >>3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>Mutaf&quot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> &lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D= >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com>a>"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank&quo= >>t;>pars.mutaf at gmail=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&a= >>mp;gt; wrote:<br type=3D3D"attribution"><blockquote
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e" style=3D= >>3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex"= >>;>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br= >>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>7:17 PM, Jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Cro=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span = >>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> >roft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>target=3D3D"= >>;_blank">Jon.Crowcrof= >>t at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>kquote class=3D3= >>D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> #cc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>c solid;padding-= >>left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>this is what we = >>used to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my pro= >>blem is too hard even for you&quot; poser
>>=A0>>> syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>basically, whene= >>ver you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of th= >>e problem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the = >>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I
>>=A0>>> didn&#39;t
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> chang=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e the problem:&l= >>t;br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did
>>=A0>>> we really
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> ask t=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>his question?<= >>;br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> themselves wh=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>at it is used fo= >>r. They cannot explain. <br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>I woul= >>d start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am n= >>ot sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3D= >>A0<=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br></div&g= >>t;<blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>> style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1p= >>x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice = >>things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>is that it is re= >>ally hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a way it stil= >>l doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you
>>=A0>>> choose<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe= >> not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>In missive &= >>lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>=A0>>> 50589DCC.2= >>030808 at dcrocker.net"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>blank"><= >>a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.n= >>et</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>> typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div><d= >>iv><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>o:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%= >>2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank&quo= >>t;>CACQuiebE-s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>o:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2i= >>WfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
>>=A0>>> </a>&gt;,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the>> >>=A0>>> relevant
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> prior=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> work (many poin= >>ters were given)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> is not relevant= >>.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>been, or has
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> any=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;d/<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&am= >>p;gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">k">http://bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank">
>>=A0>>> bbiw.net<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> </a><b=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></div><= >>/div>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span><= >>font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></font><= >>;/span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D3D"a= >>ll"><span
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>b"><f= >>ont color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D= >>"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> >nt-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>//cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org" target=3D3D"_blan= >>k">
>>=A0>>> >_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> </a><br><=3D= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></font><= >>;/span></blockquote></div>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></blockquote&= >>gt;</div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- &= >>lt;br><a
>>=A0>>> href=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> >rget=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>//ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org&= >>quot; target=3D3D"_blank">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> >nt-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc=3D>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>//e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa27= >>12b204ca091b8d--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>sed-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset= >>=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quote= >>d-printable
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_qu= >>ote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>Crowcroft =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span dir=3D3D"ltr"= >>>&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>=A0>>> target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>ef=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk<= >>/a>&gt;</span>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo= >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>#ccc soli=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, = >>many of whuch have been studied
>>=A0>>> in<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have t= >>o make do with resources they have
>>=A0>>> to<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>hand<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>they may be spread over a large = >>area (e.g all of indonesia,
>>=A0>>> japan,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>california) and not be prepared = >>with giant ballons as you
>>=A0>>> desribed<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><= >>;div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>users&#39; task=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> of course. <br><br>= >>Organizations like red cross will prepare
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>them.<br><br>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote = >>class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,= >>204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>what many DO have is phones and = >>laptops.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>manets can be usefully built out= >> of these.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><= >>;div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>users in a di=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>saster scenario <br>becaus= >>e they are too far away from the rest
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>of the netw=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANE= >>T is not only useless, it has a very low
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>probability to=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> work.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><b= >>lockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(= >>204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a military scenario i menion,= >> your giant ballon idea is a
>>=A0>>> great<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>target for the other side<br&= >>gt;</blockquote><div><br><br>I
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>personally do not =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>argue for the army.. This is not= >> really research,<br>because they
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>do obscur=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e things that we do not even kno= >>w. They can just <br>use the most
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>expensive=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> satellite phones. They do not c= >>are. <br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><b= >>lockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(= >>204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in the vehicular scenario i meni= >>on, a giant ballon would be a
>>=A0>>> big<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>drag, especially when you go thr= >>ough tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><= >>;div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>dangerous*.=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> Just use the infrastructure
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>network.<br><br>=3DA0&= >>lt;/div><blockquote class=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" sty= >>le=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&= >>quot;>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>your move, sunshine.<br>>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><= >>;div></div><div></div><blockquote
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt= >> 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ing-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>In missive
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZd= >>vRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>il.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f3= >>9aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Typ= >>e: text/plain; charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div><div class=3D3D&qu= >>ot;h5">=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not = >>question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D">g/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.o= >>rg/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>g12602.html"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://w= >>ww.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a>&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep= >> 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<= >>;a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcro= >>ft@=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Ta= >>ke the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
>>=A0>>> >exist since AR=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>PA Packet radio<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; da= >>ys. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>networks, veh=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>icular<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; ne= >>tworks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Th= >>e internet isn&#39;t for just one <a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D">et=3D"_blank">http://thing=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.it" target=3D3D"_blan= >>k">thing.it</a= >>> is, by definition, for
>>=A0>>> anything<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we= >> can imagine and realize...it is the union of
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>all communi=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>cations, not the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; in= >>tersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On= >> 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>&lt;<a href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>"mailto:>ars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com">>rs.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&gt;
>>=A0>>> wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>>> &lt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; <a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>.uk">roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as
>>=A0>>> the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>you&quot; pos=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>er syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>solution,<=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>really ask thi=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>s question?<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>themselves wha=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>t it is used for.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; They cannot explain.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>want for th=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I = >>am<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; Cheers,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; Pars<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>E2E argume=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>nt(s))<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>problem it =3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>solves<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>whichever vers=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ion you choose<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>9DCC.2030808 at d">50589DCC.2030808 at d=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>arget=3D"_blank">crocker.net">>8 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave C= >>rocker
>> >>=A0>>> typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>Crowcroft wrot=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; <a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>uiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=3D>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>T%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
>>=A0>>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>q2A at mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, P= >>ar<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; = >>I
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>encourage you to=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> read the relevant prior work (m= >>any<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>pointer was give=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not = >>relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>whether this thr=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; of<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>not relevant=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>...<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
>>=A0>>> InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D">tp://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net"
>>=A0>>> target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>ef=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt; =3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; --<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt; <a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D">-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org<= >>/a>" target=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.co= >>ntent-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href= >>=3D3D">k">http://www.content-based-science.org"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blan=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>k">>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scie= >>nce.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0&am= >>p;gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Typ= >>e: text/html; charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Tra= >>nsfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not = >>question enough Jon.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&= >>;lt;a hr=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://www.= >>ietf.org/=3D3D"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://w" target=3D"_blank">http://w=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archiv= >>e/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>">.org/mail-arch=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D>a>"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br>= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12= >>602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&q= >>uot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep= >> 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>&lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;= >>&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&a= >>mp;quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>">>crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&= >>gt;jon=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a href= >>=3D3D"http://cam.ac.uk<= >>/a>"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/= >>span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3= >>D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&= >>;quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>solid;padding-=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br= >>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&a= >>mp;gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>exist sinc=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br>= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Ba= >>ttlefield networks, disaster recovery
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>networks, vehic=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some a= >>ctually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&a= >>mp;gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D"<= >>a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=3D= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>t; target=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&= >>;quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>"_blank">>"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt= >>; is, by definition, for anything
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>we can imag=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ine and=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...= >>it is the union of all communications, not
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>the inters=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion w= >>ith one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div= >> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>2012 17:4=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&= >>amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a = >>href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>.mutaf at gmail.">pars.mutaf at gmail.=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>com">>ars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&= >>gt;pars.m=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt= >>;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote c= >>lass=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot;= >> style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&= >>amp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&= >>amp;gt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM= >>, Jon Cro=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &= >>;lt;span
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>dir=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&am= >>p;amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcro= >>ft@=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D= >>3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>Crowcroft">Jon.Crowcroft=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>@> target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk">>t at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>>=A0>>> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&g= >>t=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&l= >>t;bloc=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote clas= >>s=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c solid;pad= >>ding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is wha= >>t we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;qu= >>ot;my problem is too hard even for
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, = >>whenever you offer a workable
>>=A0>>> solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (= >>of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or= >> the
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/block= >>quote&gt;&lt;div=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I d= >>idn&amp;#39;t chang=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the probl= >>em:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>the Intern=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<= >>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his questio= >>n?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>example, they di=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<= >>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is us= >>ed for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>we want f=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D= >>3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but= >> I am not sure if I should do this.
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&= >>amp;lt;br&gt;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&= >>amp;lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:= >>0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-le= >>ft:1px solid
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&= >>amp;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the = >>nice things about IP (and the E2E
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>argument(s))&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it = >>is really hard to change the problem it
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>solves&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it= >> still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>version you c=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, = >>maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive = >>&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>:>808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">>lto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
>>=A0>>> </a>&quot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>tar=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br= >>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>9DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=3D>r> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>08 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&= >>gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>typed:&lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div= >>&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;mailto:<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>uiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-s= >>XDZD-=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>wO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25= >>2BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>om">>iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq= >>2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&quot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuie= >>bE-s=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:>-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2X= >>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D"_blank">ail.gmail.com">
>>=A0>>> >q2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com= >></a>&=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&a= >>mp;lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf
>>=A0>>> typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D<= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ncourage you to read the relevan= >>t prior=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many= >> pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft),= >> it=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not rel= >>evant.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>this thread=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br= >>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope of&am= >>p;lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>relevant...=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&= >>;amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"http:=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>//>rget=3D"_blank">bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank">>=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&qu= >>ot;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_b=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href= >>=3D3D"http://bbiw.net>>"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&lt=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/di= >>v&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;spa= >>n&gt;&lt;font
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&= >>gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 =3D= >>3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&q= >>uot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;= >>&gt;&lt;font
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&= >>gt;&lt;br&gt;-=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr= >>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D">-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s" tar=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D"_blank">> href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= >>ased-s</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href= >>=3D3D"http://cience.or= >>g"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>uot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_bla= >>nk&quot;&gt;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D">-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>rget=3D"_blank">cience.org"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-= >>based-science.org</a>&lt;/=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&= >>lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l= >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/bl= >>ockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>href=3D3D"http://=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>www.c" target=3D3D"_bl= >>ank">http://www.c<= >>;/a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href= >>=3D3D"ht= >>tp://ontent-based-science.org"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>ence.org" target=3D"_blank">tent-based-science.org</a>&quot;<= >>br> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D">.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc>>"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://www.content-b" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br= >>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href= >>=3D3D"http://e.org"= >>;
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&l= >>=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f3= >>9aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span class=3D3D"HOEnZb&= >>quot;><font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></font></span></b= >>lockquote></div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><= >>br>--
>>=A0>>> <br><a href=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D">.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scie= >>nce.org"
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">>http://www.cont" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=3D
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>nce.org" target=3D"_blank">ent-based-science.org</a><br><= >>;br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--= >>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>> =A0>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0cheers
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--
>>=A0>>>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>><br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">= >>;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Cro=3D
>>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk" =3D
>>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>= >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D
>>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:= >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D
>>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>=A0>>yes - the ballonist assumes you&#39;d have electricity<br= >>>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>i dont.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are= >><br>
>>=A0>>and send hashtag data =3DA0with sensor net is about 7 days...<= >>;br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and= >><br>
>>=A0>>landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (= >>see<br>
>>=A0>>for example google&#39;s mapping of haiti earthquake damage)= >>,<br>
>>=A0>>it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routi= >>ng with<br>
>>=A0>>the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....<br>= >>;</blockquote><di=3D
>>=A0>>v><br><br>You can design the most incredibly inte= >>lligent algorithms, you ca=3D
>>=A0>>nnot<br>solve the network partition problem. People will d= >>ie simply. <br>
>>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_= >>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D
>>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu= >>ot;>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>something mon golfier frere hasn&#39;t<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map = >>of who is<b=3D
>>=A0>>r>
>>=A0>>where and what resources are still working would be good<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup = >>diasters<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were = >>looters)<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>In missive &lt;a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]&gt;, Joh= >>n Day typed:<br>
>>=A0>><div><div class=3D3D"h5"><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You seem to be assuming you have electricit= >>y. =3DA0Which seems lik=3D
>>=A0>>e a big<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;assumption. =3DA0Not much of a disaster if = >>you still have power.<b=3D
>>=A0>>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;I can see you guys haven&#39;t been in = >>many disasters.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wr= >>ote:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;the resources to put enough ballons= >> (as many as cell towers)=3D
>>=A0>> in<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;all the areas where there might be = >>a disaster are simply<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;insufficient. certainyl the red cro= >>ss has neither the skills=3D
>>=A0>>et,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;nor the spare money to attempt anyt= >>hing so ludicrous.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;on the other hand, the self-orgsani= >>tion of people during dis=3D
>>=A0>>asters<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;will serve very well to build an op= >>portunistic wireless net =3D
>>=A0>>for<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;the 3 days before more resources ar= >>rive.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;the use of a self-monitoring, self = >>organising network could =3D
>>=A0>>also<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;provide valuble on-the-ground senso= >>ry and situational awaren=3D
>>=A0>>ess<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;input which when logged, would help= >> the diaster relief teams=3D
>>=A0>> find<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;where self help groups existed with= >> resources and where to p=3D
>>=A0>>rovide<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;help - it would support, essentiall= >>y, a triage system for ho=3D
>>=A0>>w to<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;optimse resoruce allocation.<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;the balloons are visible here<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">p://xkcd.com/1110/" target=3D"_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/" targe= >>t=3D3D"_blank">http://x= >>=3D
>>=A0>>kcd.com/1110/= >></a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;if you clock and drag far enough al= >>ong...<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;In missive &lt;CACQuieYE2E_3dr5= >>5Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D3D1ZXwdc=3D
>>=A0>>z+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339ca= >>e83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type:= >> text/plain; charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<b=3D
>>=A0>>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 1= >>9, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a= >> href=3D3D"mailto:Jon.Cr= >>owcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=3D
>>=A0>>">Jon.Crow= >>croft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; in a= >> typical disaster scenario, many of whu=3D
>>=A0>>ch have been studied in<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; grea= >>t detail, =3DA0people have to make do wit=3D
>>=A0>>h resources they have to<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; hand= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; they= >> may be spread over a large area (e.g a=3D
>>=A0>>ll of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; cali= >>fornia) and not be prepared with giant =3D
>>=A0>>ballons as you desribed<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;Preparing the= >> balloons is not the users&#39; tas=3D
>>=A0>>k of course.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;Organizations= >> like red cross will prepare them.<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; what= >> many DO have is phones and laptops.<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; mane= >>ts can be usefully built out of these.<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;MANET may not= >> work for isolated users in a disas=3D
>>=A0>>ter scenario<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;because they = >>are too far away from the rest of t=3D
>>=A0>>he network.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;So MANET is n= >>ot only useless, it has a very low =3D
>>=A0>>probability to work.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; in a= >> military scenario i menion, your giant=3D
>>=A0>> ballon idea is a great<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; targ= >>et for the other side<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;I personally = >>do not argue for the army.. This is=3D
>>=A0>> not really research,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;because they = >>do obscure things that we do not ev=3D
>>=A0>>en know. They can just<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;use the most = >>expensive satellite phones. They do=3D
>>=A0>> not care.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; in t= >>he vehicular scenario i menion, a giant=3D
>>=A0>> ballon would be a big<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; drag= >>, especially when you go through tunnel=3D
>>=A0>>s and under bridges.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;Vehicular net= >>works are *unnecessarily dangerous*=3D
>>=A0>>. Just use the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;infrastructur= >>e<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;network.<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; your= >> move, sunshine.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In m= >>issive<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4= >>xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail=3D
>>=A0>>.gmail.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; com&= >>amp;gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=3D
>>=A0>>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charse=3D
>>=A0>>t=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. =3D
>>=A0>>See:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/m=3D
>>=A0>>ail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D3D&qu= >>ot;_blank">http://www.i<= >>/a>=3D
>>=A0>>>2.html" target=3D"_blank">etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h= >>tml</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM=3D
>>=A0>>, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>crowcr">jon.crowcr=3D
>>=A0>>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk"&g= >>t;jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk<= >>/a></a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sur=3D
>>=A0>>e. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; radi= >>o<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks,=3D
>>=A0>> disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in=3D
>>=A0>> use ad deployed.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for =3D
>>=A0>>just one <a href=3D3D">=3D"_blank">http://thing.it" target=3D3D"_blank">>ref=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by =3D= >>
>>=A0>>definition, for<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; anyt= >>hing<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize.=3D
>>=A0>>..it is the union of all communications,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; not = >>the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion =3D
>>=A0>>with one technology.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot=3D
>>=A0>>;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>f=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mu= >>taf at gm=3D
>>=A0>>ail.com</a&g= >>t;&gt; wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at=3D
>>=A0>> 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D3D"mailto:>ilto:Jon.C">Jon.C=3D
>>=A0>>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>a>">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.= >>cam.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we use=3D
>>=A0>>d to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is=3D
>>=A0>> too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever=3D
>>=A0>> you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the p=3D
>>=A0>>roblem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the ass=3D
>>=A0>>umptions)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change =3D
>>=A0>>the problem:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the=3D
>>=A0>> Internet? Did we really ask this question?<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example,=3D
>>=A0>> they did not ask themselves what it is used<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; for.= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thr=3D
>>=A0>>ead &quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;Internet&quot; =3DA0but I<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; am&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do=3D
>>=A0>> this.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice thi=3D
>>=A0>>ngs about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is reall=3D
>>=A0>>y hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still d=3D
>>=A0>>oesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe no=3D
>>=A0>>t IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a h=3D
>>=A0>>ref=3D3D"mailto:>.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">>.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net<=3D
>>=A0>>/a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>r> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/=3D<= >>br> >>=A0>>2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In = >>=3D
>>=A0>>missive &lt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xx= >>aeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tF=3D
>>=A0>>cP5PgT%2BVq2A@= >>mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5Pg= >>=3D
>>=A0>>T+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com= >></a>&gt;,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Par&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s M= >>=3D
>>=A0>>utaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3D= >>A0=3D
>>=A0>> &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant p= >>rior work (many<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given=3D
>>=A0>>)<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3D= >>A0=3D
>>=A0>> &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it= >> is not<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; rele= >>vant.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<= >>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it = >>=3D
>>=A0>>is exactly relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>r> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>r> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;in the b=3D<= >>br> >>=A0>>roader sense of whether this thread has been,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;or has any<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; hope= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;being, c=3D<= >>br> >>=A0>>onstructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>r> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>r> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave= >>=3D
>>=A0>> Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Bran= >>=3D
>>=A0>>denburg InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a = >>h=3D
>>=A0>>ref=3D3D"http= >>://bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank">>iw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D3D">w.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=3D
>>=A0>>on= >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b= >>ased-scienc=3D
>> >>=A0>>e.org</a>&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-ba=3D
>>=A0>>sed-science= >>.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.or= >>g</a>=3D
>> >>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=3D
>>=A0>>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quote=3D
>>=A0>>d-printable<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. =3D
>>=A0>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&am= >>p;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; <= >>a href=3D3D"ht= >>tp://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">> target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/m=3D
>>=A0>>sg12602.html&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; <= >>a href=3D3D">=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>" target=3D3D"_blank">>tf.org/mail-arch=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D= >></a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h=3D
>>=A0>>tml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt= >>;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; clas= >>s=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM=3D
>>=A0>>, Jon Crowcroft &lt;span<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; dir= >>=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"m=3D
>>=A0>>ailto:jon.= >>crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">>ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; targ= >>et=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon.crowcr=3D
>>=A0>>oft at cl=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D3D">=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk" ta=3D
>>=A0>>rget=3D3D"_blank">>et=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;= >>/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; styl= >>e=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=3D
>>=A0>>der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example,=3D
>>=A0>> sure. Many use cases exist since<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;ARPA Packet<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; rad= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, d=3D
>>=A0>>isaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; netw= >>or=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad dep=3D
>>=A0>>loyed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#3=3D
>>=A0>>9;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D&= >>quot;http://thing.it"= >>; target=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>"_blank">>nk">http://thing.it</a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; targ= >>et=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D"http:= >>//thing.it" target=3D3D"_blank">>ng.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by de= >>fi=3D
>>=A0>>nition, for anything we can<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; imag= >>ine and=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of al=3D
>>=A0>>l communications, not the intersection<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; of o= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&l=3D
>>=A0>>t;/p&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_qu=3D
>>=A0>>ote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &amp;quot;Pars<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;Mutaf&amp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; &= >>;amp;lt=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a =3D
>>=A0>>href=3D3D"mailto:pa= >>rs.mutaf at gmail.com">par= >>s.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; targ= >>et=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.mutaf=3D
>>=A0>>@gmail=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&quot;&gt;&lt;bl= >>ockquote<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; clas= >>s=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0=3D
>>=A0>> 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; soli= >>d;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div clas=3D>> >>=A0>>s=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On Tue, Sep 18, 2= >>012 at<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;7:17 PM, Jon<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Cro= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D3D&quot;lt=3D
>>=A0>>r&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;ma= >>ilto:<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; <= >>a href=3D3D"mailto:Jon.Cr= >>owcroft at cl.cam.ac.u=3D
>>=A0>>k">Jon.Cro= >>wcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">>owcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</=3D
>>=A0>>a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt;<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; wrot= >>e:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quo=3D
>>=A0>>te&quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;.8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; #cc= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk abo=3D
>>=A0>>ut as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard=3D
>>=A0>> even for you&amp;quot; poser syndrome&lt;br&gt;<= >>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a =3D
>>=A0>>workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) chang=3D
>>=A0>>es the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;problem (or the assumptions)&lt;=3D
>>=A0>>br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;= >>br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; chan= >>g=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;What do we want for the Internet? Did we really<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; ask = >>t=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; them= >>selves wh=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot e=3D
>>=A0>>xplain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new th=3D
>>=A0>>read &amp;quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Inte= >>rnet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure if I sho=3D
>>=A0>>uld do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Cheers,<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; &= >>;lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote=3D
>>=A0>> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D3D&qu= >>ot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; 0.8e= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=3D
>>=A0>>204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP =3D
>>=A0>>(and the E2E argument(s))&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to cha=3D
>>=A0>>nge the problem it solves&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;=3D
>>=A0>>t solve, whichever version you choose&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;b=3D
>>=A0>>r&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D
>>=A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">= >>50589DCC.20=3D
>>=A0>>30808 at dcrocker.net<= >>/a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; targ= >>et=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto=3D
>>=A0>>:50589DCC.20308= >>08 at dcrocker.net">>t">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;=3D
>>=A0>>&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;= >>=3D
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D>r> >>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/201=3D
>>=A0>>2 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In=3D
>>=A0>> missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; CACQ= >>uiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>BV2X">58iDwO%252BV2X=3D
>>=A0>>V1tFcP5P= >>gT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.= >>gmai=3D
>>=A0>>l.com</a>&a= >>mp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; targ= >>et=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-=3D
>>=A0>>s=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>Wf">XDZD-xxaeC2iWf=3D
>>=A0>>>com">M58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2= >>iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1t=3D
>>=A0>>FcP5PgT+Vq2A at ma= >>il.gmail.com</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Par&= >>amp;lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s =3D
>>=A0>>Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I encourage you to = >>read the relevant<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; prio= >>r=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)=3D
>>=A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Crow= >>croft), it=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it=3D
>>=A0>> is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D>r> >>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D>r> >>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broa=3D
>>=A0>>der sense of whether this thread has<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;been, or has<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; any= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, cons=3D
>>=A0>>tructive, it was not relevant...&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D>r> >>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D>r> >>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Dave =3D
>>=A0>>Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Brand=3D
>>=A0>>enburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a=3D
>>=A0>> href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D">w.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank&= >>quot;>http://bbiw.n=3D>r> >>=A0>>et</a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&a= >>mp;gt;<a href=3D3D"ht= >>tp://bbiw.net" t=3D
>>=A0>>arget=3D3D"_blank">>et=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; &= >>;lt;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3D3DA0che=3D
>>=A0>>ers&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D3D&=3D
>>=A0>>quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b=3D>> >>=A0>>lockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;b= >>r clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;=3D
>>=A0>>span<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; clas= >>s=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D3D&q=3D
>>=A0>>uot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&= >>;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; <= >>a href=3D3D"h= >>ttp://www.content-based-s" targ=3D
>>=A0>>et=3D3D"_blank">>-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D3D<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">=3D"_blank">http://cience.org" ta=3D
>>=A0>>rget=3D3D"_blank">>get=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_b= >>lank&quot;&gt;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D">rget=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D3D&= >>quot;_blank">http://www= >>.co=3D
>> >>=A0>>nte= >>nt-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; &= >>;lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/b=3D>> >>=A0>>lockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&=3D>> >>=A0>>lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot;&= >>gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a h=3D
>>=A0>>ref=3D3D3D&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; <= >>a href=3D3D"http://www.c>>" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D
>>=A0>>http://www.c</= >>a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">get=3D"_blank">http://ontent-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>cience.org&q= >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>e.org" target=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>&quot; t= >>arget=3D3D3=3D
>> >>=A0>>D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; <= >>a href=3D3D">nk">http://www.content-based-scienc"=3D
>>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank">>based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a&g= >>t;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D">lank">http://e.org" target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>lank">e.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&= >>;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--=3D
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA= >>0 =3DA0jon<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"= >>http://www.content-based-science.org"=3D
>>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank">>based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org>a></a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339ca= >>e83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type:= >> text/html; charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Trans= >>fer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div c= >>lass=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On =3D
>>=A0>>Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;Crowcroft =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span = >>dir=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;=3D
>>=A0>>a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:>f=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"= >>;>Jon.C=3D
>>=A0>>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>a></a>&quot; target=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&q= >>uot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>on">Jon=3D
>>=A0>>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.u= >>k">Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&l=3D
>>=A0>>t;/span&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blo= >>ckquote=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; class=3D3D3D= >>&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D3D&qu=3D
>>=A0>>ot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;#ccc soli=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;d;padding-lef= >>t:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;in a typical = >>disaster scenario, many of whuch ha=3D
>>=A0>>ve been studied in&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;great detail,= >> =3D3DA0people have to make do with r=3D
>>=A0>>esources they have to&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;hand&lt;b= >>r&gt;<br>
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;they may be s= >>pread over a large area (e.g all of=3D
>>=A0>> indonesia, japan,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;california) a= >>nd not be prepared with giant ballo=3D
>>=A0>>ns as you desribed&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;Preparing the balloons is not the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;users&amp;#39; task=3D3D<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; of course. &= >>amp;lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Organizations li=3D
>>=A0>>ke red cross will prepare<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;them.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&l= >>t;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot;=3D
>>=A0>>gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left= >>:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=3D
>>=A0>>-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;what many DO = >>have is phones and laptops.&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;manets can be= >> usefully built out of these.&lt;br=3D
>>=A0>>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;&lt;br&gt;MANET may not work for isolated<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;users in a di=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;saster scenar= >>io &lt;br&gt;because they are too f=3D
>>=A0>>ar away from the rest<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;of the netw=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ork. &lt;= >>br&gt;&lt;br&gt;So MANET is not only us=3D
>>=A0>>eless, it has a very low<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;probability to=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; work.&lt= >>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;=3D3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0p= >>t 0pt =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-= >>left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=3D
>>=A0>>ding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;in a military= >> scenario i menion, your giant ball=3D
>>=A0>>on idea is a great&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;target for th= >>e other side&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquo=3D
>>=A0>>te&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt= >>;I<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;personally do not =3D3D<br>>r> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;argue for the= >> army.. This is not really research=3D
>>=A0>>,&lt;br&gt;because they<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;do obscur=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;e things that= >> we do not even know. They can just=3D
>>=A0>> &lt;br&gt;use the most<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;expensive=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; satellite ph= >>ones. They do not care. &lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;=3D3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0p= >>t 0pt =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-= >>left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=3D
>>=A0>>ding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;in the vehicu= >>lar scenario i menion, a giant ball=3D
>>=A0>>on would be a big&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;drag, especia= >>lly when you go through tunnels and=3D
>>=A0>> under bridges.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;dangerous*.=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; Just use the= >> infrastructure<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;network.&lt;b= >>r&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;b=3D
>>=A0>>lockquote class=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&q= >>uot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;mar=3D
>>=A0>>gin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D3D= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;b(204,204,204= >>);padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;your move, su= >>nshine.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/div=3D
>>=A0>>&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquot= >>e<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&a= >>mp;quot; st=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;yle=3D3D3D&am= >>p;quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-le=3D
>>=A0>>ft:1px solid<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D3D<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ing-left:1ex&= >>amp;quot;&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4V= >>RhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@=3D
>>=A0>>mail.gma=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;il.&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;com&amp;g= >>t;, Pars Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=3D
>>=A0>>b8d&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type: text/plain; c=3D
>>=A0>>harset=3D3D3DISO-8859-1&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&a= >>mp;gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&quot;h5&quot;&gt;=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;You do not question enough =3D
>>=A0>>Jon. See:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3= >>D"= >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w=3D
>>=A0>>eb/manet/current/ms=3D3D" target=3D3D"_blank">= >>http://w= >>ww.ietf.org/mail-archive/=3D
>>=A0>>web/manet/current/ms=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;g12602.html&a= >>mp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ank">http://www.ietf.=3D
>>=A0>>org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D3D" target=3D3D"_blank&= >>quot;>http://w= >>ww.ietf.org/mail=3D
>>=A0>>-archive/web/manet/c=3D3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;urrent/msg126= >>02.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:=3D
>>=A0>>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft@= >>cl.cam=3D
>>=A0>>.ac.uk"><= >>a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >></a>&quot;&gt;jon.crowcroft@=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://cl.cam.ac.= >>uk" target=3D3D"_blank=3D
>>=A0>>">cl.c= >>am.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;wrote:&lt;br&gt= >>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Take the MANET exa=3D
>>=A0>>mple, sure. Many use cases<br>
>>=A0>>&gt;exist since AR=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;PA Packet rad= >>io&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; days. Battlefield =3D
>>=A0>>networks, disaster recovery<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;networks, veh=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;icular&lt= >>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; networks...some ac=3D
>>=A0>>tually in use ad deployed.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; The internet isn&a=3D
>>=A0>>mp;#39;t for just one &lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3= >>D"http://thing" ta= >>rget=3D3D"_blank">ht=3D
>>=A0>>tp://thing</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;.it&quot;= >> target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D"http:= >>//thing.it" target=3D3D"_blank">>ng.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by de= >>fi=3D
>>=A0>>nition, for anything&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; we can imagine and=3D
>>=A0>> realize...it is the union of<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;all communi=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;cations, not = >>the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; intersection of on=3D
>>=A0>>e notion with one technology.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:=3D
>>=A0>>48, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&quot;mai= >>lto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:pars.m= >>utaf at gmail.=3D
>>=A0>>com">pars.mutaf@= >>gmail.com</a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>f=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.c">pars.mutaf at gmail.c=3D
>>=A0>>om">pars.mutaf at g= >>mail.com</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br&g= >>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; On Tue, Se=3D
>>=A0>>p 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &amp;lt;&lt;br&= >>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam=3D
>>=A0>>.ac.uk"><= >>a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >></a>&quot;&gt;Jon.Crowc=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:roft at cl.cam.ac.uk&q= >>uot;>roft at cl.cam=3D
>>=A0>>.ac.uk</a>&= >>amp;lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; th=3D
>>=A0>>is is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &a=3D
>>=A0>>mp;quot;my problem is too hard even for<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;you&amp;quot; pos=3D3D<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;er syndrome&a= >>mp;lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; ba=3D
>>=A0>>sically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;solution,&lt;=3D3D<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; th=3D
>>=A0>>e poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; pr=3D
>>=A0>>oblem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; No I didn&=3D
>>=A0>>amp;#39;t change the problem:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; What do we=3D
>>=A0>> want for the Internet? Did we<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;really ask thi=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;s question?&a= >>mp;lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Take MANET=3D
>>=A0>> for example, they did not ask<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;themselves wha=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;t it is used = >>for.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; They canno=3D
>>=A0>>t explain.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I would st=3D
>>=A0>>art a new thread &amp;quot;What do we<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;want for th=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;e Internet&am= >>p;amp;quot; =3D3DA0but I am&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; not sure i=3D
>>=A0>>f I should do this.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Cheers,&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; Pars&lt;br=3D
>>=A0>>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; on=3D
>>=A0>>e of the nice things about IP (and the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;E2E argume=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;nt(s))&lt= >>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; is=3D
>>=A0>> that it is really hard to change the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;problem it =3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;solves&lt= >>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; in=3D
>>=A0>> a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve,<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;whichever vers=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ion you choos= >>e&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; (w=3D
>>=A0>>ell, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In=3D
>>=A0>> missive &amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808= >>@d">=3D
>>=A0>>50589DCC.2030808 at d</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://crocker.net= >>" target=3D3D"_blank"=3D
>>=A0>>>crocker.net= >></a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>to:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"&g= >>t;=3D
>> >>=A0>>50589DCC.203080= >>8 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker ty= >>ped:&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;Crowcroft wrot=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;e:&lt;br&= >>amp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;= >>lt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &l=3D
>>=A0>>t;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZ= >>D-xxae=3D
>>=A0>>C2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a= >>>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:2BV2XV1t= >>FcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.=3D
>>=A0>>gmail.com&quo= >>t;>2BV2XV1tFc= >>P5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-sXD=3D= >>
>>=A0>>ZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:V1tFcP5P= >>gT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=3D
>>=A0>>om">= >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,= >> Par&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&l= >>t;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;= >>&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;encourage you to=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; read the rel= >>evant prior work (many&lt;br&gt;<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; po=3D
>>=A0>>inters were given)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;= >>&amp;gt;Only 1<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;pointer was give=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;n (by Jon Cro= >>wcroft), it is not relevant.&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly releva= >>nt.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;whether this thr=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ead has been,= >> or has any hope&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; of=3D
>>=A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;not relevant=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;...&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorki= >>ng&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D3D&= >>;quot;<a href=3D3D"ht= >>tp://bbiw.net"=3D
>>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank">>rget=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot; target=3D3D<br&g= >>t;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&q= >>uot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">get=3D"_blank">http://bbi=3D
>>=A0>>w.net" targe= >>t=3D3D"_blank">b= >>biw.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D
>>=A0>>=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt=3D
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; --&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; &lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3= >>D"htt= >>p://www.content-based-science.o=3D
>>=A0>>rg" target=3D3D"_blank">>content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scien= >>ce.org</a>&quot; target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&q= >>uot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">get=3D"_blank">http://www=3D
>>=A0>>.= >>content-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>f=3D"http://www.content-based-scie" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-ba= >>sed-scie=3D
>> >>=A0>>nce.org</a&g= >>t;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<=3D
>>=A0>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a hre=3D
>>=A0>>f=3D3D">get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D3D&q= >>uot;_blank">http://www= >>.con=3D
>> >>=A0>>tent= >>-based-science.org</a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blan=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;k&quot;&a= >>mp;gt;<a href=3D3D">"_blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
>>=A0>>cience.org&q= >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank">>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</= >>a>&lt;/=3D
>> >>=A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&= >>amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--2=3D
>>=A0>>0cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type: text/html; ch=3D
>>=A0>>arset=3D3D3DISO-8859-1&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: =3D
>>=A0>>quoted-printable&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;You do not question enough =3D
>>=A0>>Jon.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;See:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&= >>amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a hr=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D3D&a= >>mp;amp;quot;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D">ank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D3D" target=3D3D"_blank">= >>;http://www.ietf.= >>org/=3D3D3D<=3D
>> >>=A0>>/a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"htt= >>p://w" target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>">http://w</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://ww.= >>ietf.org/=3D3D3D" target=3D3D"_=3D
>>=A0>>blank">>_blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D3D</a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&g= >>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;mail-archive/web/manet/curr=3D
>>=A0>>ent/msg12602.html&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br>>r> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&quot;<= >>;a href=3D3D">lank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D3D" target=3D3D"_blank">>/www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-= >>arch=3D3D3D</a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ank">http://www.ietf.=3D
>>=A0>>org/ma=3D3D" target=3D3D"_blank">>tp://www.ietf.org/ma=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D3D>></a><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;il-arch=3D3D3= >>D&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12=3D
>>=A0>>602.html&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&= >>;amp;lt;br&amp;gt=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;&amp;lt;= >>br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div=3D
>>=A0>> class=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<= >>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;quote&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;=3D
>>=A0>>br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:=3D
>>=A0>>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;span dir=3D3D3D3=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;D&amp;quo= >>t;ltr&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;&amp=3D
>>=A0>>;lt;a hr=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;ef=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;mailto:&=3D
>>=A0>>lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft@= >>cl.cam=3D
>>=A0>>.ac.uk"><= >>a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >></a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&quot;&am= >>p;gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:jo= >>n.crowcroft at cl.cam=3D
>>=A0>>.ac.uk"><= >>a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank= >>&amp;quot;&amp;gt;jon=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;.crowcroft at cl= >>=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;.&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D"http= >>://cam.ac.uk" target=3D3D"_blank">>am.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ank">http://cam.ac.uk=3D
>>=A0>>" target=3D3D"_blank">>.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;/a&amp;g= >>t;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;/span&amp;gt; wro=3D
>>=A0>>te:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;blockquote<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot=3D3D<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;gmail_quote&= >>amp;amp;quot; style=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:0 0=3D
>>=A0>> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;solid;padding-=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;left:1ex&= >>amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;p&amp;gt;Take the M=3D
>>=A0>>ANET example, sure. Many use cases<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;exist sinc=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;e ARPA Packet= >> rad=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;io days. Battlefield networ=3D
>>=A0>>ks, disaster recovery<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;networks, vehic=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ular networ= >>=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;ks...some actually in use a=3D
>>=A0>>d deployed.&amp;lt;/p&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;p&amp;gt;The intern=3D
>>=A0>>et isn&amp;amp;#39;t for just one &amp;lt;a<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D3D=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot= >>;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http:/=3D
>>=A0>>/thing.it"= >>; target=3D3D"_blank">>lank">http://thing.it</a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">nk">http://thing.it"=3D
>>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank">>rget=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quo= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;t; target=3D3= >>D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp=3D
>>=A0>>;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D= >>"http://thing.it&quo= >>t; target=3D3D"_b=3D
>>=A0>>lank">http= >>://thing.it</a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&quot;_bl= >>ank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">t=3D"_blank">http://thing.it=3D
>>=A0>>" target=3D3D"_blank">>it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/= >>a&amp;gt; is, by definit=3D
>>=A0>>ion, for anything<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;we can imag=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ine and=3D3D3= >>D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt; realize...it is the union =3D
>>=A0>>of all communications, not<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;the inters=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ection of o= >>=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;ne notion with one technolo=3D
>>=A0>>gy.&amp;lt;/p&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div class=3D3D3D3D&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;quot;gmail_quote&amp;quot;&amp;gt;On 18 Sep<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;2012 17:4=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;8, &amp;a= >>mp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;amp;quot; &amp;a=3D
>>=A0>>mp;lt=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D3D&amp;=3D
>>=A0>>quot;mailto:&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail>a>.">p=3D
>>=A0>>ars.mutaf at gmail.</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;com&quot;= >>&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:pa= >>rs.mutaf at gmail.=3D
>>=A0>>com">pars.mutaf@= >>gmail.com</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank= >>&amp;quot;&amp;gt;pars.m=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;utaf at gmail=3D= >>3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;.com&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;=3D
>>=A0>>amp;gt; wrote:&amp;lt;br<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;type=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;attribut= >>ion&amp;q=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;uot;&amp;= >>gt;&amp;lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D3D&amp;=3D
>>=A0>>quot;gmail_quot=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;e&amp;quot; style=3D3D3D3D&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;quot;margin:0 0 0<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D3D<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;olid;padding-= >>left:1ex&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;b=3D
>>=A0>>r&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_q= >>uote&amp;quot;&amp;gt=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;On Tue, Sep = >>18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D3D&l=3D
>>=A0>>t;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;wcroft &amp;lt;span<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;dir=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;ltr&a= >>mp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;lt;&amp;lt=3D
>>=A0>>;a href=3D3D3D=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;3D&amp;qu= >>ot;mailto:&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft@= >>cl.cam=3D
>>=A0>>.ac.uk"><= >>a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >></a>&quot;&gt;Jon.Crowcroft@=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://cl.cam.ac.= >>uk" target=3D3D"_blank=3D
>>=A0>>">cl.c= >>am.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot; =3D3D3D&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;target=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;_bla=3D
>>=A0>>nk&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft&quo= >>t;>Jon.C=3D
>>=A0>>rowcroft</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;@<a href= >>=3D3D"http://cl.cam.= >>ac.uk" target=3D3D"_blan=3D
>>=A0>>k">cl.= >>cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>f=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"= >>;>=3D
>> >>=A0>>Jon.Crowcroft at cl.c= >>am.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;&amp;= >>amp;gt;&amp;=3D
>>=A0>>lt;/span&amp;gt=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;; wrote:&= >>amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;bloc=3D3D3D&lt;b=3D
>>=A0>>r&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;kquote class=3D3D3D3D&amp;quo=3D
>>=A0>>t;gmail_quote&amp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;style=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;margin:= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;0 0 0 .8ex;bo= >>rder-left:1px #cc=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;this is what we used to tal=3D
>>=A0>>k about as the&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;amp;quot;my problem is=3D
>>=A0>> too hard even for<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;you&amp;amp;quot; poser sy=3D3D= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ndrome&am= >>p;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;basically, whenever you off=3D
>>=A0>>er a workable solution,&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&= >>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;the poser (of the problem) =3D
>>=A0>>changes the&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>= >>;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;problem (or the<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;assumptions)&amp;lt;br&amp;= >>gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;lt;div=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;gt;&= >>amp;amp;lt;br&amp;gt;No I didn&amp;amp;#39;=3D
>>=A0>>t chang=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;e the problem:&amp;lt;br&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;What do we want for<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;the Intern=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;et? Did we re= >>ally ask t=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;his question?&amp;lt;br&amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Take MANET for<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;example, they di=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;d not ask the= >>mselves wh=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;at it is used for. They can=3D
>>=A0>>not explain. &amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br&= >>gt;
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;I would s=3D
>>=A0>>tart a new thread &amp;amp;quot;What do<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;we want f=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;or the Intern= >>et&amp;amp;quot;=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0 but I am not sure i=3D
>>=A0>>f I should do this.<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;= >>lt;br&amp;gt=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;Cheers, &= >>;amp;lt;br&amp;gt;Pars&amp;lt;br&amp;gt=3D
>>=A0>>;=3D3D3DA0&amp;lt;=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;=3D
>>=A0>>gt;&amp;lt;blockquote<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;gmail_q= >>uote&amp;quo=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;t; style=3D3D= >>3D3D&amp;quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;x;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&a= >>mp;amp;quot;&amp;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;one of the nice things abou=3D
>>=A0>>t IP (and the E2E<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;argument(s))&amp;lt;br&amp;= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;is that it is really hard t=3D
>>=A0>>o change the problem it<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;solves&amp;lt;br&amp;=3D3D&= >>lt;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;gt;&lt;br= >>&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;in a way it still doesn&amp=3D
>>=A0>>;amp;#39;t solve, whichever<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;version you c=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;hoose&amp= >>;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)=3D
>>=A0>>&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;In missive &amp;amp;lt;&amp=3D
>>=A0>>;lt;a href=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;mailto:&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto=3D3D<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;:<a href= >>=3D3D"mailto:50589DCC= >>.2030808 at dcrocker.net=3D
>>=A0>>">50589= >>DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D&quo= >>t;mailto:50589DCC.203=3D
>>=A0>>0808 at dcrocker.net"= >>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcroc= >>ker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;tar=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;get=3D3D3D3D&= >>amp;amp;quot;_=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;=3D
>>=A0>>a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:50589DCC.20308= >>08 at dcr=3D
>>=A0>>ocker.net&quo= >>t;>50589DCC.2030808 at dcr= >>ocker.net</a>&quot;&gt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"mailto:50589DCC.20= >>30808 at dcrocker.net"=3D
>>=A0>>>50589DCC.20= >>30808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt= >>;&amp;amp;gt;,=3D
>>=A0>> Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;typed:&amp;lt=3D3D<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;br&amp;g= >>t;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;=3D
>>=A0>>div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;Crowcroft wrote:&amp;=3D3D<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;lt;br&amp= >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; In missive &amp;amp;lt;&amp;lt;a<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D3D=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot= >>;mailto:&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZ= >>D-xxae=3D
>>=A0>>C2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>&quot;&a= >>mp;gt;CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;xxaeC2iWfM&am= >>p;lt;/a&gt;=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:58iDwO%25252= >>BV2XV1tF=3D
>>=A0>>cP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT= >>%252BVq2A at mail.gmai=3D
>>=A0>>l.c</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;om&quot;&= >>amp;gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:= >>58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF=3D
>>=A0>>cP5PgT%252BV= >>q2A at mail.gmail.com">>252BVq2A at mail.gmail.co">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.co=3D<= >>br> >> >>=A0>>m</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;_blank&a= >>mp;quot;&amp;gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D3D&lt;br&=3D
>>=A0>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a h= >>ref=3D3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWf= >>M58iDw=3D
>>=A0>>O%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2B= >>V2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2=3D
>>=A0>>A at m</a>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://ail.gmail= >>.com" target=3D3D"_blan=3D
>>=A0>>k">ai= >>l.gmail.com</a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:>ref=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2X">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2X>>=3D
>> >>=A0>>V1tFcP5PgT= >>%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2= >>A@=3D
>>=A0>>mail.gmail.c= >>om</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;lt;/a&amp= >>;gt;&amp;amp;gt;, Par&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;=3D
>>=A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&am= >>p;lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; =3D3D3DA0<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&am= >>p;amp;amp;gt; I e=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;ncourage you = >>to read the relevant prior=3D3D3D&lt;=3D
>>=A0>>br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt; work (many pointers were g=3D
>>=A0>>iven)&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; =3D3D3DA0<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp;gt;Onl= >>y 1 point=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;er was given = >>(by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D3D3D&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt; is not relevant.&amp;lt;br=3D
>>=A0>>&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;amp;gt; it is exactly<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;relevant.&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;= >>&lt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;in the broader sense of whether<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;this thread=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt; has been, or= >> has any=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt; hope of&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&=3D
>>=A0>>lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;being, constructive, it was not<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;relevant...=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;lt;b= >>r&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;d/&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;--&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt; =3D3D3DA0Dave Crocker&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt; =3D3D3DA0Brandenburg<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;InternetWorking&amp;lt;br&a= >>mp;gt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0&amp;amp;gt;&amp;amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt; =3D3D3DA0&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt;a= >><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;http:=3D3D<= >>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;//<a href= >>=3D3D"http://bbiw.net>>" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D
>>=A0>>bbiw.net</a= >>>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://bbiw.=3D
>>=A0>>net" target=3D3D"_blank">>w.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&am= >>p;amp;quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;_b=3D3= >>D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;lank&amp;= >>quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a hr=3D
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D"http:= >>//bbiw.net" target=3D3D"_blank">>w.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot;<br><= >>br> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">nk">http://bbiw.net"=3D
>>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank">>rget=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt=3D3D<= >>;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;;/a&amp;g= >>t;&amp;lt;b=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;r&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt=3D
>>=A0>>;/div&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0cheers&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&l= >>t;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;span&amp;gt;&amp;lt=3D
>>=A0>>;font<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;color=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;#888888= >>&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;gt;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D3DA0 =3D3D3DA0jon&amp;lt;b=3D
>>=A0>>r&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt=3D
>>=A0>>;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;l=3D
>>=A0>>t;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;l= >>t;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;gt;&amp;l= >>t;br clear=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;all&amp;quot=3D
>>=A0>>;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;span<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;class=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;HOEnZ= >>=3D3D3D&lt;br=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<b= >>r>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;b&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;=3D
>>=A0>>font<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;color=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;#888888= >>&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;gt;-=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;- &amp;lt= >>;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D3D&amp;qu=3D
>>=A0>>ot;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3= >>D"http://www.= >>content-based-s" target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>&quot; tar= >>=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;get=3D3D3D&am= >>p;quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"http://=3D
>>=A0>>www.content-based-s" target=3D3D"_blank">>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-base= >>d-s</a>&lt;/a=3D
>>=A0>>&gt;=3D3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a hre=3D
>>=A0>>f=3D3D"http= >>://cience.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org</a>&quot;<= >>br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ank">http://cience.or=3D
>>=A0>>g" target=3D3D"_blank">>e.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp= >>;q=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;uot; target= >>=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp=3D
>>=A0>>;gt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3= >>D"http://www.= >>content-based-s" target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D3D<br>= >>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://cience.org>a>" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D
>>=A0>>cience.org&l= >>t;/a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D3D">ank">http://www.conte=3D
>>=A0>>nt-bas= >>ed-science.org" target=3D3D"_blank">>/www.content-based-science.or" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s= >>cience.or=3D
>> >>=A0>>g</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;a&amp;gt;= >>&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;=3D3D3D&lt;br&g=3D
>>=A0>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/font&amp;gt;&amp;l=3D
>>=A0>>t;/span&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;&amp;l= >>t;/div&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br=3D
>>=A0>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/blockquote&amp;gt;=3D
>>=A0>>&amp;lt;/div&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&amp;l= >>t;br<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;clear=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;all&amp;q= >>uot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;-- &amp;l=3D
>>=A0>>t;br&amp;gt;&amp;lt;a href=3D3D3D3D&amp;quot;&lt= >>;a<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;href=3D3D3D&quot;http://=3D3D&l= >>t;br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;www.c&quo= >>t; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a =3D
>>=A0>>href=3D3D"http:/= >>/www.c" target=3D3D"_blank">>target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>&lt;/a&gt;=3D3D3D&l= >>t;=3D
>>=A0>>br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a hre=3D
>>=A0>>f=3D3D">=3D"_blank">http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D3D"_bla= >>nk">http://ontent= >>-based=3D
>> >>=A0>>-science.org>></a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&q= >>uot;&gt;on=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D= >>3D"http://= >>tent-based-science.org" target=3D
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>org" target=3D"_blank">tent-based-science.org</a>&lt;/a&g= >>t;&amp;quot; target=3D3D3D3D&am=3D
>>=A0>>p;quot;_blank&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D<br= >>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&q= >>uot;<a href=3D3D">blank">http://www.content-based-s=3D
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>>=A0>>rget=3D3D"_blank">>=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;lt;/a&amp;gt;= >>&amp;l=3D3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;t;br&amp;= >>gt;&amp;lt;br&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
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>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&a= >>mp;gt;&amp;gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=3D
>>=A0>>b8d--&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0cheers= >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span = >>class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZb&quot;&gt;&lt;fon=3D
>>=A0>>t color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&= >>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3D= >>A0jon&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&am= >>p;gt;<br>
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>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank">>rg" target=3D"_blank">ent-based-science.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;= >>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&gt;--f46d04339ca= >>e83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
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>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
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>> >>=A0>>ent-b= >>ased-science.org</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>
>>=A0>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee--
>>
>>=A0cheers
>>
>>=A0 =A0jon
>>
>>



--
>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont= >>ent-based-science.org

>> >>--20cf307abd912fff2004ca190509-- cheers jon From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 00:21:52 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 10:21:52 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: 1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will only be useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I would rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for trying to get help from non-professional strangers. This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy for others because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they should do. You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg, request water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I am not sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? 2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some people suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my pocket. Therefore: The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will broadcast an address which everyone can call for real help. This is really not a networking problem. It is about education. === I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough, we may not even need a balloon: http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/412942e0/attachment.html From Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk Thu Sep 20 00:35:48 2012 From: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk (Jon Crowcroft) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 08:35:48 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Ah - I see the source of confusion. You want to build a standby infrastructure There are lots of ways to do that - One is to build standby cell power (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected the way the generators at fukushima were) or have huge racks of batteries the way old phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail defined as >50% of lines down) - Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is parallel in technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get either of those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model However, its beside the point: The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want to make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)... they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ who have safe water, dry clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - What people building DTNs (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) want to do is to provide _something_ for a self organising set of people to self organise opportunistic communication, UNTIL someone (else) comes along and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually (because coming along right away requires you to have massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - go figure out how get that paid for). Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists - One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's obviously not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit while listening to 'Blood' playing Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg Its been, er, virtual... In missive , Par s Mutaf typed: >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: >> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will only be >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I would >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for trying to get >>help from non-professional strangers. >> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy for others >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they should do. >> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg, request >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I am not >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? >> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some people >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my pocket. >> >>Therefore: >> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will broadcast an >>address which everyone can call for real help. >> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about education. >> >>=== >> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough, we may not >>even need a balloon: >> >>http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ >> From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 01:02:24 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:02:24 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > Ah - I see the source of confusion. > > You want to build a standby infrastructure > > There are lots of ways to do that - > > One is to build standby cell power > (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight > or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected > the way the generators at fukushima were) > or have huge racks of batteries the way old > phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail > defined as >50% of lines down) - > Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar > powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... > Cool. > Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is parallel in > technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get either of > those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model > > However, its beside the point: > The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want to > make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)... > they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ > who have safe water, dry > clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - > No I don't do this mistake. ***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood too***. MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me. It is not needed as you admitted above. > What people building DTNs > (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) > want to do is to provide _something_ for a > self organising set of people to > self organise opportunistic communication, > UNTIL someone (else) comes along > and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually > (because coming along right away requires you to have > massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - > go figure out how get that paid for). > > Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists - > > One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error > in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to > discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's obviously > not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). > > of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, > so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit > while listening to 'Blood' playing > Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg > > Its been, er, virtual... > > > In missive yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: > >> > >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will only > be > >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I would > >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for trying to > get > >>help from non-professional strangers. > >> > >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy for > others > >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they should do. > >> > >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg, > request > >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I am not > >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? > >> > >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some people > >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my pocket. > >> > >>Therefore: > >> > >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will broadcast > an > >>address which everyone can call for real help. > >> > >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about education. > >> > >>=== > >> > >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough, we may > not > >>even need a balloon: > >> > >> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ > >> > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/b6d80a03/attachment.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 02:36:06 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 12:36:06 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: I guess you forgot to include the list this time. Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for example: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144 http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. ps: DTN, I did not question yet. On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one songle > objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your incorrect > views about disasters and about our networks. > > so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area. > 1. how many do you need > 2. what is their cost > 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation > 4. how long do their power sources last > 5. what are your plans for maintenance > 6. how often are they deployed? > what if you get repeated disasters E.g. > hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean) > 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons > > > by the way, you said MANET again - > I said we modified this 12 years back or > more to do DTN - > please stop repeateing incorrect > ideas YOU have that I didnt say. > > you are confused. > > In missive Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion. > >>> > >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure > >>> > >>> There are lots of ways to do that - > >>> > >>> One is to build standby cell power > >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight > >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected > >>> the way the generators at fukushima were) > >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old > >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail > >>> defined as >50% of lines down) - > >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar > >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... > >>> > >> > >>Cool. > >> > >> > >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > parallel in > >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > either of > >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model > >>> > >>> However, its beside the point: > >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want > to > >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)... > >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ > >>> who have safe water, dry > >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - > >>> > >> > >>No I don't do this mistake. > >> > >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood too***. > >> > >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me. > >> > >>It is not needed as you admitted above. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> What people building DTNs > >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) > >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a > >>> self organising set of people to > >>> self organise opportunistic communication, > >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along > >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually > >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have > >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - > >>> go figure out how get that paid for). > >>> > >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists > - > >>> > >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error > >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to > >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's obviously > >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). > >>> > >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, > >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit > >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing > >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher > >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg > >>> > >>> Its been, er, virtual... > >>> > >>> > >>> In missive >>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par > >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: > >>> >> > >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will > only > >>> be > >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I > would > >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for > trying to > >>> get > >>> >>help from non-professional strangers. > >>> >> > >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy > for > >>> others > >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they > should do. > >>> >> > >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg, > >>> request > >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I > am not > >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? > >>> >> > >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some > people > >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my > pocket. > >>> >> > >>> >>Therefore: > >>> >> > >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will > broadcast > >>> an > >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help. > >>> >> > >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about education. > >>> >> > >>> >>=== > >>> >> > >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough, > we may > >>> not > >>> >>even need a balloon: > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ > >>> >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, > Jon Cr= > >>owcroft < Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"= > >> target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > wrote:
>>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > .8ex;border-left:1px #c= > >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.
> >>
> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure
> >>
> >>There are lots of ways to do that -
> >>
> >>One is to build standby cell power
> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)
> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old
> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail
> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -
> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > fact...
>>uote>

Cool.
=A0
class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > rgb(204,204,204)= > >>;padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > parallel in= > >>
> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > either = > >>of
> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model
> >>
> >>However, its beside the point:
> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want > to >>> > >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...
> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_
> >>who have safe water, dry
> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc > -

No = > >>I don't do this mistake.

***The base station can serve for > the = > >>calling the neighborhood too***.

MANET looks like nothing but a > res= > >>earch exercise to me.
> >>
It is not needed as you admitted above. >


=A0
>>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8ex;border-left:1px s= > >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >> > >>What people building DTNs
> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a
> >>self organising set of people to
> >>self organise opportunistic communication,
> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along
> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually
> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have
> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
> >>go figure out how get that paid for).
> >>
> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail > lists -= > >>
> >>
> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error
> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to
> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's > obviously >>> > >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).
> >>
> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,
> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit
> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing
> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
> >> target=3D"_blank">= > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
> >>
> >>Its been, er, virtual...
> >>
> >>
> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D yf18msEv0dg-= > >>4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com > >,= > >> Par
> >>s Mutaf typed:
> >>
> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>
=A0>>
> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise > MANET wi= > >>ll only be
> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to > do. I= > >> would
> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery > for tr= > >>ying to get
> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to consume > energy= > >> for others
> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what > they sh= > >>ould do.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your > broken le= > >>g, request
> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, > but = > >>I am not
> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can > provide? >>> > >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. > Some = > >>people
> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this > in my= > >> pocket.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Therefore:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It > will br= > >>oadcast an
> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about > education.<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust > enough,= > >> we may not
> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo= > >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > target=3D= > >>"_blank"> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones= > >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
> >> > >>=A0>>
> >>



--
href=3D"= > >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.content-= > >>based-science.org

> >> > >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/e4636256/attachment-0001.html From pars.mutaf at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 03:14:10 2012 From: pars.mutaf at gmail.com (Pars Mutaf) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:14:10 +0300 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: OK see, where there was a problem: http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/ It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on MANET seriously? London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down: http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft wrote: > you give examples where it does work - so what? > > counter examples: > both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets > in indonesia and japan. > in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube, > for 7 hours no cell net worked at all. > > you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a > disaster backup net. I can give you many > > you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual. > > In missive 0PA at mail.gmail.com>, Par > s Mutaf typed: > > >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 > >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. > >> > >>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of > disaster. > >>See for example: > >> > >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144 > >> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ > >> > http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages > >> > >>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more > robust > >>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... > >> > >>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. > >> > >>ps: DTN, I did not question yet. > >> > >> > >> > >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>wrote: > >> > >>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one > songle > >>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your > incorrect > >>> views about disasters and about our networks. > >>> > >>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area. > >>> 1. how many do you need > >>> 2. what is their cost > >>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation > >>> 4. how long do their power sources last > >>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance > >>> 6. how often are they deployed? > >>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g. > >>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean) > >>> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons > >>> > >>> > >>> by the way, you said MANET again - > >>> I said we modified this 12 years back or > >>> more to do DTN - > >>> please stop repeateing incorrect > >>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say. > >>> > >>> you are confused. > >>> > >>> In missive >>> Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com>, Par > >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> > >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >> > >>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft > >>> >>wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure > >>> >>> > >>> >>> There are lots of ways to do that - > >>> >>> > >>> >>> One is to build standby cell power > >>> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight > >>> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected > >>> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were) > >>> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old > >>> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF > (fail > >>> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) - > >>> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar > >>> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>Cool. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > >>> parallel in > >>> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > >>> either of > >>> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business > model > >>> >>> > >>> >>> However, its beside the point: > >>> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone > want > >>> to > >>> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mnemonic)... > >>> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ > >>> >>> who have safe water, dry > >>> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >>No I don't do this mistake. > >>> >> > >>> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood > too***. > >>> >> > >>> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me. > >>> >> > >>> >>It is not needed as you admitted above. > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>> What people building DTNs > >>> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) > >>> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a > >>> >>> self organising set of people to > >>> >>> self organise opportunistic communication, > >>> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along > >>> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually > >>> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have > >>> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - > >>> >>> go figure out how get that paid for). > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail > lists > >>> - > >>> >>> > >>> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error > >>> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to > >>> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's > obviously > >>> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). > >>> >>> > >>> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, > >>> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit > >>> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing > >>> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher > >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Its been, er, virtual... > >>> >>> > >>> >>> > >>> >>> In missive >>> >>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par > >>> >>> s Mutaf typed: > >>> >>> > >>> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 > >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET > will > >>> only > >>> >>> be > >>> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to > do. I > >>> would > >>> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for > >>> trying to > >>> >>> get > >>> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume > energy > >>> for > >>> >>> others > >>> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they > >>> should do. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken > leg, > >>> >>> request > >>> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, > but I > >>> am not > >>> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. > Some > >>> people > >>> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my > >>> pocket. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>Therefore: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will > >>> broadcast > >>> >>> an > >>> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about > education. > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>=== > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust > enough, > >>> we may > >>> >>> not > >>> >>> >>even need a balloon: > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> > >>> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ > >>> >>> >> > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >>-- > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >>> >> > >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b > >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >>> >> > >>> >>

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 > AM, > >>> Jon Cr= > >>> >>owcroft < >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"= > >>> >> target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> > >>> wrote:
>>> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 > >>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c= > >>> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure
> >>> >>
> >>> >>There are lots of ways to do that -
> >>> >>
> >>> >>One is to build standby cell power
> >>> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
> >>> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
> >>> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)
> >>> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old
> >>> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF > (fail
> >>> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -
> >>> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
> >>> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > >>> fact...
>>> >>uote>

Cool.
=A0
>>> class=3D"gmail_quot= > >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid > >>> rgb(204,204,204)= > >>> >>;padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is > >>> parallel in= > >>> >>
> >>> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get > >>> either = > >>> >>of
> >>> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business > model
> >>> >>
> >>> >>However, its beside the point:
> >>> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone > want > >>> to >>> >>> > >>> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mnemonic)...
> >>> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_
> >>> >>who have safe water, dry
> >>> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc > >>> -

No = > >>> >>I don't do this mistake.

***The base station can serve > for > >>> the = > >>> >>calling the neighborhood too***.

MANET looks like nothing > but a > >>> res= > >>> >>earch exercise to me.
> >>> >>
It is not needed as you admitted above. > >>>


=A0
>>> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > >>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s= > >>> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> > >>> >> > >>> >>What people building DTNs
> >>> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
> >>> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a
> >>> >>self organising set of people to
> >>> >>self organise opportunistic communication,
> >>> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along
> >>> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually
> >>> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have
> >>> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
> >>> >>go figure out how get that paid for).
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail > >>> lists -= > >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error
> >>> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to
> >>> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's > >>> obviously >>> >>> > >>> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, > though).
> >>> >>
> >>> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,
> >>> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit
> >>> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing
> >>> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
> >>> >> >>> target=3D"_blank">= > >>> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Its been, er, virtual...
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D >>> yf18msEv0dg-= > >>> >>4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com > >>> >,= > >>> >> Par
> >>> >>s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise > >>> MANET wi= > >>> >>ll only be
> >>> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what > to > >>> do. I= > >>> >> would
> >>> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my > battery > >>> for tr= > >>> >>ying to get
> >>> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to > consume > >>> energy= > >>> >> for others
> >>> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what > >>> they sh= > >>> >>ould do.
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your > >>> broken le= > >>> >>g, request
> >>> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other > things, > >>> but = > >>> >>I am not
> >>> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can > >>> provide? >>> >>> > >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach > anyone. > >>> Some = > >>> >>people
> >>> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have > this > >>> in my= > >>> >> pocket.
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>Therefore:
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It > >>> will br= > >>> >>oadcast an
> >>> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about > >>> education.<= > >>> >>br> > >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust > >>> enough,= > >>> >> we may not
> >>> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:
> >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>=A0>> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo= > >>> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > >>> target=3D= > >>> >>"_blank"> > >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones= > >>> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
> >>> >> > >>> >>=A0>>
> >>> >>



--
>>> href=3D"= > >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > >>> http://www.content-= > >>> >>based-science.org

> >>> >> > >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b-- > >>> > >>> cheers > >>> > >>> jon > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >>-- > >>http://www.content-based-science.org > >> > >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 > >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > >> > >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time.

Well by > current p= > >>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for > example: <= > >>br>
> http://www= > >>.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144
> >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon= > >>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > target=3D"_blank">ht= > >>tp:// > www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios= > >>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
> >> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph= > >>ones-major-disasters-messages"> > http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine= > >>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages

If you dot > tru= > >>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you > agreed= > >>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar...
> >>
Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work.

ps: > DTN, I = > >>did not question yet.



On > Thu, Se= > >>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft < href=3D"mail= > >>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank"> > Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= > >>> wrote:
> >>
.8ex;border-left:1p= > >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where's your funds to do your > pla= > >>n? you havn't answered one songle
> >>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your > incorrect >>> > >>views about disasters and about our networks.
> >>
> >>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.
> >>1. how many do you need
> >>2. what is their cost
> >>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation
> >>4. how long do their power sources last
> >>5. what are your plans for maintenance
> >>6. how often are they deployed?
> >>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.
> >>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)
> >>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons
> >>
> >>
> >>by the way, you said MANET again -
> >>I said we modified this 12 years back or
> >>more to do DTN -
> >>please stop repeateing incorrect
> >>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.
> >>
> >>you are confused.
> >>
> >>In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D Oqi__T9T0GEcr= > >>1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com > >= > >>, Par
> >>s Mutaf typed:
> >>
> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
> >>
=A0>>
> >>=A0>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>=A0>>< ">Jon.Crowcroft@= > >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> You want to build a standby infrastructure
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> There are lots of ways to do that -
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> One is to build standby cell power
> >>=A0>>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
> >>=A0>>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
> >>=A0>>> the way the generators at fukushima were)
> >>=A0>>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old
> >>=A0>>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a > 100years M= > >>TBF (fail
> >>=A0>>> defined as >50% of lines down) -
> >>=A0>>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
> >>=A0>>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > fac= > >>t...
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Cool.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one > whic= > >>h is parallel in
> >>=A0>>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure > out ho= > >>w to get either of
> >>=A0>>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some > busines= > >>s model
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> However, its beside the point:
> >>=A0>>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a > disaster= > >> zone want to
> >>=A0>>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mne= > >>monic)...
> >>=A0>>> they don't. what they want is to find other people > _nea= > >>rby_
> >>=A0>>> who have safe water, dry
> >>=A0>>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>No I don't do this mistake.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>***The base station can serve for the calling the > neighborhood t= > >>oo***.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>It is not needed as you admitted above.
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>> What people building DTNs
> >>=A0>>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
> >>=A0>>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a
> >>=A0>>> self organising set of people to
> >>=A0>>> self organise opportunistic communication,
> >>=A0>>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along
> >>=A0>>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later > usually
> >>=A0>>> (because coming along right away requires you to > have
> >>=A0>>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
> >>=A0>>> go figure out how get that paid for).
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies > present= > >> on mail lists -
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own > error= > >>
> >>=A0>>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online > fora= > >> to
> >>=A0>>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - > that= > >>9;s obviously
> >>=A0>>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left > then, t= > >>hough).
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each > other= > >>,
> >>=A0>>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a > bit= > >>
> >>=A0>>> while listening to 'Blood' playing
> >>=A0>>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
> >>=A0>>> ta= > >>rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> Its been, er, virtual...
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D
> >>=A0>>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">y= > >>f18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=3DISO-8859-1 >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the > infrastructure, ot= > >>herwise MANET will only
> >>=A0>>> be
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have > no id= > >>ea what to do. I would
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>rather wait for real help instead of > consuming m= > >>y battery for trying to
> >>=A0>>> get
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>help from non-professional strangers.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This means that users really have no > incentive t= > >>o consume energy for
> >>=A0>>> others
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And > this= > >> is what they should do.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>You can of course try to reach your > neighbors fo= > >>r your broken leg,
> >>=A0>>> request
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors > or ot= > >>her things, but I am not
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help > they= > >> can provide?
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot > rea= > >>ch anyone. Some people
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I > don't= > >> have this in my pocket.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Therefore:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as > poss= > >>ible. It will broadcast
> >>=A0>>> an
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>address which everyone can call for real > help. >>r> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It > is a= > >>bout education.
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D=3D=3D
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network > is no= > >>t robust enough, we may
> >>=A0>>> not
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>even need a balloon:
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new= > >>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" > targ= > >>et=3D"_blank"> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p= > >>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
> >> > >>=A0>>> =A0>>
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>=A0>>
> >>
=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
> >>
=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; > charset=3DISO-8859-1<= > >>br> > >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>=A0>>
> >>
=A0>><br><br><div > class=3D3D"gmail_quote&qu= > >>ot;>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D
> >>
=A0>>owcroft <span > dir=3D3D"ltr">&a= > >>mp;lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto: Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac= > >>.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"=3D
> >>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank"> Jon.Crowcrof= > >>t at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk > </a>&gt;</span&g= > >>t; wrote:<br><blo=3D
> >>=A0>>ckquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin= > >>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D
> >>=A0>>cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>
=A0>>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>One is to build standby cell power<br>
> >>=A0>>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
> >>=A0>>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
> >>=A0>>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
> >>=A0>>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
> >>=A0>>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years > MTBF (= > >>fail<br>
> >>=A0>>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br>
> >>=A0>>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
> >>=A0>>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in > fact...&= > >>lt;br></blockq=3D
> >>=A0>>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. > <br= > >>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt > 0.8ex;border-left:1px= > >> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D
> >>=A0>>;padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which > is = > >>parallel in=3D
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure out > how= > >> to get either =3D
> >>=A0>>of<br>
> >>=A0>>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business > mod= > >>el<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>However, its beside the point:<br>
> >>=A0>>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster > zone= > >> want to<br=3D
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny > Mnemonic= > >>)...<br>
> >>=A0>>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people > _near= > >>by_<br>
> >>=A0>>who have safe water, dry<br>
> >>=A0>>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc > -<br></blo= > >>ckquote><div><br>No =3D
> >>=A0>>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The > base= > >> station can serve for the =3D
> >>=A0>>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET > looks= > >> like nothing but a res=3D
> >>=A0>>earch exercise to me. <br>
> >>=A0>><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. > <br><= > >>br><br>=3DA0</div><blockquot=3D
> >>=A0>>e class=3D3D"gmail_quote" > style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0= > >>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D
> >>=A0>>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>What people building DTNs<br>
> >>=A0>>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting > incorrectly)<br> >>> > >>=A0>>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
> >>=A0>>self organising set of people to<br>
> >>=A0>>self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
> >>=A0>>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
> >>=A0>>and fixes the infrastructure some while later > usually<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>(because coming along right away requires you to > have<br><= > >>br> > >>=A0>>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
> >>=A0>>go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies > present = > >>on mail lists -=3D
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own > error<b= > >>r>
> >>=A0>>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora > to&l= > >>t;br>
> >>=A0>>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - > that&#39= > >>;s obviously<br=3D
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left > then, th= > >>ough).<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each > other,<= > >>br>
> >>=A0>>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a > bit<b= > >>r>
> >>=A0>>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; > playing<br>
> >>=A0>>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D3D" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= > >>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6= > >>ZJjt9lg" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D
> >>=A0>> targe= > >>t=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg > </a>&l= > >>t;br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>Its been, er, virtual...<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D<a > href=3D= > >>3D"mailto:yf18msEv0dg-=3D
> >>=A0>> ">4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.g= > >>mail.com"> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.= > >>com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com > </a>&gt;,=3D
> >>=A0>> Par<br>
> >>
=A0>>s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> > >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br&= > >>gt;
> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: > text/plain;= > >> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>
=A0>><div class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><div > class=3D3D= > >>"h5">=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad > idea:<br&= > >>gt;
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the > infrastructur= > >>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D
> >>=A0>>ll only be<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who > have = > >>no idea what to do. I=3D
> >>=A0>> would<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of > consum= > >>ing my battery for tr=3D
> >>=A0>>ying to get<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional > strangers.<br= > >>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no > incent= > >>ive to consume energy=3D
> >>=A0>> for others<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help. > And= > >> this is what they sh=3D
> >>=A0>>ould do.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your > neighbo= > >>rs for your broken le=3D
> >>=A0>>g, request<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional > neighbors = > >>or other things, but =3D
> >>=A0>>I am not<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real > help= > >> they can provide?<br=3D
> >>=A0>>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I > canno= > >>t reach anyone. Some =3D
> >>=A0>>people<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I > don&= > >>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D
> >>=A0>> pocket.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as > fast as= > >> possible. It will br=3D
> >>=A0>>oadcast an<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for > real he= > >>lp.<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking > problem. It= > >> is about education.<=3D
> >>=A0>>br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular > network = > >>is not robust enough,=3D
> >>=A0>> we may not<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D" http://www.= > >>trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www= > >>.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D
> > >>=A0>>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/= > >>" target=3D3D=3D
> >>=A0>>"_blank"> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b= > >>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.trust.= > >>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D
> > >>=A0>>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><= > >>;br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
> > >>=A0>></div></div></blockquote></div><br>= > >>;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a > href=3D3D= > >>"=3D
> >>=A0>> target=3D"_blan= > >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org" > target=3D3D"_blank&q= > >>uot;> > http://www.conten= > >>t-=3D
> >> > >>=A0>> target=3D"_blank">based-sci= > >>ence.org</a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>
> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--
> >>
> >>=A0cheers
> >>
> >>=A0 =A0jon
> >>
> >>



--
href= > >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> > http://www.cont= > >>ent-based-science.org

> >> > >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0-- > > cheers > > jon > > -- http://www.content-based-science.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/083276a5/attachment-0001.html From arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 03:28:22 2012 From: arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com (Arjuna Sathiaseelan) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 11:28:22 +0100 Subject: [e2e] end2end-interest Digest, Vol 101, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Prof Hermitage, > So, TANSTAAFL... but TADL (there are donated lunches) ? That sounds more appropriate :).. Some naturally give, Some need motivation to give, Some have expectations to give -> "give" is common here, for the rest we need to find social+economic+technology+probably even psychological reasons :)..Everything in the universe of discourse is dependent on each other! What we need is to create a "value chain" and the rest will follow. The butterfly effect! Regards Arjuna From g.sakellari at imperial.ac.uk Thu Sep 20 05:09:26 2012 From: g.sakellari at imperial.ac.uk (Georgia Sakellari) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 13:09:26 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Discrete IP - retake In-Reply-To: References: <50589DCC.2030808@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Dear all, I have been following this discussion with great interest and I would like to invite you all to submit to this relevant workshop I am co-organising so that we can discuss all this in person. It will definitely be an interesting, to say the least, session. http://san.ee.ic.ac.uk/pernem2013/ Kind regards, Georgia On Sep 20, 2012 12:52 PM, "Pars Mutaf" wrote: > OK see, where there was a problem: > > > http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/ > > It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on > MANET seriously? > > London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down: > > > http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html > > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft < > Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > >> you give examples where it does work - so what? >> >> counter examples: >> both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets >> in indonesia and japan. >> in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube, >> for 7 hours no cell net worked at all. >> >> you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a >> disaster backup net. I can give you many >> >> you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual. >> >> In missive > 0PA at mail.gmail.com>, Par >> s Mutaf typed: >> >> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 >> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> >> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. >> >> >> >>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of >> disaster. >> >>See for example: >> >> >> >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144 >> >> >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ >> >> >> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages >> >> >> >>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more >> robust >> >>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... >> >> >> >>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. >> >> >> >>ps: DTN, I did not question yet. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>wrote: >> >> >> >>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one >> songle >> >>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your >> incorrect >> >>> views about disasters and about our networks. >> >>> >> >>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area. >> >>> 1. how many do you need >> >>> 2. what is their cost >> >>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation >> >>> 4. how long do their power sources last >> >>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance >> >>> 6. how often are they deployed? >> >>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g. >> >>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean) >> >>> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> by the way, you said MANET again - >> >>> I said we modified this 12 years back or >> >>> more to do DTN - >> >>> please stop repeateing incorrect >> >>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say. >> >>> >> >>> you are confused. >> >>> >> >>> In missive > >>> Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com>, Par >> >>> s Mutaf typed: >> >>> >> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b >> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> >> >> >>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft >> >>> >>wrote: >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion. >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> There are lots of ways to do that - >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> One is to build standby cell power >> >>> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight >> >>> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected >> >>> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were) >> >>> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old >> >>> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF >> (fail >> >>> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) - >> >>> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar >> >>> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact... >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>Cool. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is >> >>> parallel in >> >>> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get >> >>> either of >> >>> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business >> model >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> However, its beside the point: >> >>> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster >> zone want >> >>> to >> >>> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny >> Mnemonic)... >> >>> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_ >> >>> >>> who have safe water, dry >> >>> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc - >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>No I don't do this mistake. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood >> too***. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me. >> >>> >> >> >>> >>It is not needed as you admitted above. >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>> What people building DTNs >> >>> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly) >> >>> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a >> >>> >>> self organising set of people to >> >>> >>> self organise opportunistic communication, >> >>> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along >> >>> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually >> >>> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have >> >>> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 - >> >>> >>> go figure out how get that paid for). >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail >> lists >> >>> - >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error >> >>> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to >> >>> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's >> obviously >> >>> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though). >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other, >> >>> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit >> >>> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing >> >>> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher >> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> Its been, er, virtual... >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> In missive > >>> >>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par >> >>> >>> s Mutaf typed: >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8 >> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea: >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise >> MANET will >> >>> only >> >>> >>> be >> >>> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to >> do. I >> >>> would >> >>> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for >> >>> trying to >> >>> >>> get >> >>> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume >> energy >> >>> for >> >>> >>> others >> >>> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they >> >>> should do. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your >> broken leg, >> >>> >>> request >> >>> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, >> but I >> >>> am not >> >>> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide? >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. >> Some >> >>> people >> >>> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my >> >>> pocket. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>Therefore: >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will >> >>> broadcast >> >>> >>> an >> >>> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about >> education. >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>=== >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust >> enough, >> >>> we may >> >>> >>> not >> >>> >>> >>even need a balloon: >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/ >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>-- >> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >>> >> >> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b >> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >>> >> >> >>> >>

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 >> AM, >> >>> Jon Cr= >> >>> >>owcroft <> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"= >> >>> >> target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> >> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 >> >>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c= >> >>> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> >> >>> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>There are lots of ways to do that -
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>One is to build standby cell power
>> >>> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
>> >>> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
>> >>> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)
>> >>> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old
>> >>> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF >> (fail
>> >>> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -
>> >>> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
>> >>> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in >> >>> fact...
> >>> >>uote>

Cool.
=A0
> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot= >> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid >> >>> rgb(204,204,204)= >> >>> >>;padding-left:1ex"> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is >> >>> parallel in= >> >>> >>
>> >>> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to >> get >> >>> either = >> >>> >>of
>> >>> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business >> model
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>However, its beside the point:
>> >>> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone >> want >> >>> to> >>> >>> >> >>> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny >> Mnemonic)...
>> >>> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people >> _nearby_
>> >>> >>who have safe water, dry
>> >>> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc >> >>> -

No = >> >>> >>I don't do this mistake.

***The base station can >> serve for >> >>> the = >> >>> >>calling the neighborhood too***.

MANET looks like nothing >> but a >> >>> res= >> >>> >>earch exercise to me.
>> >>> >>
It is not needed as you admitted above. >> >>>


=A0
> >>> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >> >>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s= >> >>> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> >> >>> >> >> >>> >>What people building DTNs
>> >>> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
>> >>> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a
>> >>> >>self organising set of people to
>> >>> >>self organise opportunistic communication,
>> >>> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along
>> >>> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually
>> >>> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have
>> >>> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
>> >>> >>go figure out how get that paid for).
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on >> mail >> >>> lists -= >> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error
>> >>> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to
>> >>> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's >> >>> obviously> >>> >>> >> >>> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, >> though).
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,
>> >>> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit
>> >>> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing
>> >>> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
>> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">= >> >>> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>Its been, er, virtual...
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D> >>> yf18msEv0dg-= >> >>> >>4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com"> >> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com >> >>> >,= >> >>> >> Par
>> >>> >>s Mutaf typed:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>> >>> >>
=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise >> >>> MANET wi= >> >>> >>ll only be
>> >>> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea >> what to >> >>> do. I= >> >>> >> would
>> >>> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my >> battery >> >>> for tr= >> >>> >>ying to get
>> >>> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to >> consume >> >>> energy= >> >>> >> for others
>> >>> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is >> what >> >>> they sh= >> >>> >>ould do.
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your >> >>> broken le= >> >>> >>g, request
>> >>> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other >> things, >> >>> but = >> >>> >>I am not
>> >>> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can >> >>> provide?> >>> >>> >> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach >> anyone. >> >>> Some = >> >>> >>people
>> >>> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have >> this >> >>> in my= >> >>> >> pocket.
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>Therefore:
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. >> It >> >>> will br= >> >>> >>oadcast an
>> >>> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about >> >>> education.<= >> >>> >>br> >> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not >> robust >> >>> enough,= >> >>> >> we may not
>> >>> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:
>> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>=A0>>> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo= >> >>> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" >> >>> target=3D= >> >>> >>"_blank"> >> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones= >> >>> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
>> >>> >> >> >>> >>=A0>>
>> >>> >>



--
> >>> href=3D"= >> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >> >>> http://www.content-= >> >>> >>based-science.org

>> >>> >> >> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b-- >> >>> >> >>> cheers >> >>> >> >>> jon >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >>-- >> >>http://www.content-based-science.org >> >> >> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0 >> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> >> >> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time.

Well by >> current p= >> >>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for >> example: <= >> >>br>
>> http://www= >> >>.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144
>> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon= >> >>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" >> target=3D"_blank">ht= >> >>tp:// >> www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios= >> >>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
>> >>> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph= >> >>ones-major-disasters-messages"> >> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine= >> >>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages

If you >> dot tru= >> >>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you >> agreed= >> >>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar...
>> >>
Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work.

ps: >> DTN, I = >> >>did not question yet.



On >> Thu, Se= >> >>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <> href=3D"mail= >> >>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank"> >> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk= >> >>> wrote:
>> >>
> .8ex;border-left:1p= >> >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where's your funds to do >> your pla= >> >>n? you havn't answered one songle
>> >>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your >> incorrect> >>> >> >>views about disasters and about our networks.
>> >>
>> >>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.
>> >>1. how many do you need
>> >>2. what is their cost
>> >>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation
>> >>4. how long do their power sources last
>> >>5. what are your plans for maintenance
>> >>6. how often are they deployed?
>> >>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.
>> >>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)
>> >>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>by the way, you said MANET again -
>> >>I said we modified this 12 years back or
>> >>more to do DTN -
>> >>please stop repeateing incorrect
>> >>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.
>> >>
>> >>you are confused.
>> >>
>> >>In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D> Oqi__T9T0GEcr= >> >>1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com >> >= >> >>, Par
>> >>s Mutaf typed:
>> >>
>> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1
>> >>
=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>> >>=A0>><> ">Jon.Crowcroft@= >> >>cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> You want to build a standby infrastructure
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> There are lots of ways to do that -
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> One is to build standby cell power
>> >>=A0>>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
>> >>=A0>>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
>> >>=A0>>> the way the generators at fukushima were)
>> >>=A0>>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old
>> >>=A0>>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a >> 100years M= >> >>TBF (fail
>> >>=A0>>> defined as >50% of lines down) -
>> >>=A0>>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
>> >>=A0>>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already >> in fac= >> >>t...
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>Cool.
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one >> whic= >> >>h is parallel in
>> >>=A0>>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure >> out ho= >> >>w to get either of
>> >>=A0>>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some >> busines= >> >>s model
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> However, its beside the point:
>> >>=A0>>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a >> disaster= >> >> zone want to
>> >>=A0>>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in >> Johnny Mne= >> >>monic)...
>> >>=A0>>> they don't. what they want is to find other people >> _nea= >> >>rby_
>> >>=A0>>> who have safe water, dry
>> >>=A0>>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>No I don't do this mistake.
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>***The base station can serve for the calling the >> neighborhood t= >> >>oo***.
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>It is not needed as you admitted above.
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> What people building DTNs
>> >>=A0>>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
>> >>=A0>>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a
>> >>=A0>>> self organising set of people to
>> >>=A0>>> self organise opportunistic communication,
>> >>=A0>>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along
>> >>=A0>>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later >> usually
>> >>=A0>>> (because coming along right away requires you to >> have
>> >>=A0>>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
>> >>=A0>>> go figure out how get that paid for).
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies >> present= >> >> on mail lists -
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own >> error= >> >>
>> >>=A0>>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online >> fora= >> >> to
>> >>=A0>>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - >> that= >> >>9;s obviously
>> >>=A0>>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left >> then, t= >> >>hough).
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each >> other= >> >>,
>> >>=A0>>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for >> a bit= >> >>
>> >>=A0>>> while listening to 'Blood' playing
>> >>=A0>>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
>> >>=A0>>> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" ta= >> >>rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> Its been, er, virtual...
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D
>> >>=A0>>> > yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">y= >> >>f18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset=3DISO-8859-1> >>r> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the >> infrastructure, ot= >> >>herwise MANET will only
>> >>=A0>>> be
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have >> no id= >> >>ea what to do. I would
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>rather wait for real help instead of >> consuming m= >> >>y battery for trying to
>> >>=A0>>> get
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>help from non-professional strangers.
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This means that users really have no >> incentive t= >> >>o consume energy for
>> >>=A0>>> others
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And >> this= >> >> is what they should do.
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>You can of course try to reach your >> neighbors fo= >> >>r your broken leg,
>> >>=A0>>> request
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors >> or ot= >> >>her things, but I am not
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help >> they= >> >> can provide?
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I >> cannot rea= >> >>ch anyone. Some people
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I >> don't= >> >> have this in my pocket.
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Therefore:
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as >> poss= >> >>ible. It will broadcast
>> >>=A0>>> an
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>address which everyone can call for real >> help.> >>r> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It >> is a= >> >>bout education.
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D=3D=3D
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network >> is no= >> >>t robust enough, we may
>> >>=A0>>> not
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>even need a balloon:
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>> > http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new= >> >>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/" >> targ= >> >>et=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p= >> >>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
>> >> >> >>=A0>>> =A0>>
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>--
>> >>=A0>>> target=3D"_blan= >> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>
=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
>> >>
=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; >> charset=3DISO-8859-1<= >> >>br> >> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>
=A0>><br><br><div >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&qu= >> >>ot;>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D
>> >>
=A0>>owcroft <span >> dir=3D3D"ltr">&a= >> >>mp;lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac= >> >>.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"=3D
>> >>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank">> Jon.Crowcrof= >> >>t at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk >> </a>&gt;</span&g= >> >>t; wrote:<br><blo=3D
>> >>=A0>>ckquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >> style=3D3D"margin= >> >>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D
>> >>=A0>>cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>> >>
=A0>>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>One is to build standby cell power<br>
>> >>=A0>>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
>> >>=A0>>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
>> >>=A0>>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
>> >>=A0>>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
>> >>=A0>>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years >> MTBF (= >> >>fail<br>
>> >>=A0>>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br>
>> >>=A0>>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
>> >>=A0>>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in >> fact...&= >> >>lt;br></blockq=3D
>> >>=A0>>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. >> <br= >> >>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D
>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt >> 0.8ex;border-left:1px= >> >> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D
>> >>=A0>>;padding-left:1ex">
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one >> which is = >> >>parallel in=3D
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure >> out how= >> >> to get either =3D
>> >>=A0>>of<br>
>> >>=A0>>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some >> business mod= >> >>el<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>However, its beside the point:<br>
>> >>=A0>>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster >> zone= >> >> want to<br=3D
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny >> Mnemonic= >> >>)...<br>
>> >>=A0>>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people >> _near= >> >>by_<br>
>> >>=A0>>who have safe water, dry<br>
>> >>=A0>>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc >> -<br></blo= >> >>ckquote><div><br>No =3D
>> >>=A0>>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The >> base= >> >> station can serve for the =3D
>> >>=A0>>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET >> looks= >> >> like nothing but a res=3D
>> >>=A0>>earch exercise to me. <br>
>> >>=A0>><br>It is not needed as you admitted above. >> <br><= >> >>br><br>=3DA0</div><blockquot=3D
>> >>=A0>>e class=3D3D"gmail_quote" >> style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0= >> >>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D
>> >>=A0>>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>What people building DTNs<br>
>> >>=A0>>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting >> incorrectly)<br>> >>> >> >>=A0>>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
>> >>=A0>>self organising set of people to<br>
>> >>=A0>>self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
>> >>=A0>>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
>> >>=A0>>and fixes the infrastructure some while later >> usually<br><= >> >>br> >> >>=A0>>(because coming along right away requires you to >> have<br><= >> >>br> >> >>=A0>>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
>> >>=A0>>go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies >> present = >> >>on mail lists -=3D
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own >> error<b= >> >>r>
>> >>=A0>>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora >> to&l= >> >>t;br>
>> >>=A0>>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - >> that&#39= >> >>;s obviously<br=3D
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left >> then, th= >> >>ough).<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each >> other,<= >> >>br>
>> >>=A0>>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a >> bit<b= >> >>r>
>> >>=A0>>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; >> playing<br>
>> >>=A0>>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
>> >>=A0>><a href=3D3D"> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v= >> >>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6= >> >>ZJjt9lg" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D
>> >>=A0>>> targe= >> >>t=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg >> </a>&l= >> >>t;br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>Its been, er, virtual...<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D<a >> href=3D= >> >>3D"mailto:yf18msEv0dg-=3D
>> >>=A0>>> ">4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.g= >> >>mail.com">> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.= >> >>com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com >> </a>&gt;,=3D
>> >>=A0>> Par<br>
>> >>
=A0>>s Mutaf typed:<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br&= >> >>gt;
>> >>
=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: >> text/plain;= >> >> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br>
>> >>
=A0>><div class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><div >> class=3D3D= >> >>"h5">=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad >> idea:<br&= >> >>gt;
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the >> infrastructur= >> >>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D
>> >>=A0>>ll only be<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who >> have = >> >>no idea what to do. I=3D
>> >>=A0>> would<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of >> consum= >> >>ing my battery for tr=3D
>> >>=A0>>ying to get<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional >> strangers.<br= >> >>>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no >> incent= >> >>ive to consume energy=3D
>> >>=A0>> for others<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real >> help. And= >> >> this is what they sh=3D
>> >>=A0>>ould do.<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your >> neighbo= >> >>rs for your broken le=3D
>> >>=A0>>g, request<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional >> neighbors = >> >>or other things, but =3D
>> >>=A0>>I am not<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real >> help= >> >> they can provide?<br=3D
>> >>=A0>>>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I >> canno= >> >>t reach anyone. Some =3D
>> >>=A0>>people<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I >> don&= >> >>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D
>> >>=A0>> pocket.<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as >> fast as= >> >> possible. It will br=3D
>> >>=A0>>oadcast an<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for >> real he= >> >>lp.<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking >> problem. It= >> >> is about education.<=3D
>> >>=A0>>br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular >> network = >> >>is not robust enough,=3D
>> >>=A0>> we may not<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"> http://www.= >> >>trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www= >> >>.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D
>> >> >>=A0>>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/= >> >>" target=3D3D=3D
>> >>=A0>>"_blank">> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b= >> >>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.trust.= >> >>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D
>> >> >>=A0>>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><= >> >>;br>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>
>> >> >>=A0>></div></div></blockquote></div><br>= >> >>;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a >> href=3D3D= >> >>"=3D
>> >>=A0>>> target=3D"_blan= >> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org" >> target=3D3D"_blank&q= >> >>uot;> >> http://www.conten= >> >>t-=3D
>> >> >> >>=A0>>> target=3D"_blank">based-sci= >> >>ence.org</a><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>
>> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--
>> >>
>> >>=A0cheers
>> >>
>> >>=A0 =A0jon
>> >>
>> >>



--
> href= >> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank"> >> http://www.cont= >> >>ent-based-science.org

>> >> >> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0-- >> >> cheers >> >> jon >> >> > > > -- > http://www.content-based-science.org > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/6d0e550e/attachment-0001.html From fred at cisco.com Thu Sep 20 11:06:23 2012 From: fred at cisco.com (Fred Baker (fred)) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 18:06:23 +0000 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1348154682.75968471@apps.rackspace.com> References: <1348104044.28233.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1348154682.75968471@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: <30C3B2D5-3209-412D-AF38-9B75036A906F@cisco.com> On Sep 20, 2012, at 8:24 AM, wrote: > When someone talks about "filling up bandwidth" - the only image that pops into mind is a completely clogged city road system (LA freeways during rush hour). Full utilization of pavement - must be the best of all possible worlds! Yes. Or a clogged city sewer. From arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 13:52:59 2012 From: arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com (Arjuna Sathiaseelan) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2012 21:52:59 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1348154682.75968471@apps.rackspace.com> References: <1348104044.28233.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1348154682.75968471@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: Ofcourse if you werent rate limited. regardd arjuna On Sep 20, 2012 4:24 PM, wrote: > > Bandwidth (actually bitrate - bandwidth is a "classic error" too, as us radio guys continue to grit our teeth at the confusion...) is useless without adequately quick latency. > > > > Hence, it is unused so that low latency can be present when it is (suddenly and unpredictably) needed. > > > > When someone talks about "filling up bandwidth" - the only image that pops into mind is a completely clogged city road system (LA freeways during rush hour). Full utilization of pavement - must be the best of all possible worlds! > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Daniel Havey" > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 9:20pm > To: "Fred Baker (fred)" > Cc: "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "Jon Crowcroft" , "" < end2end-interest at postel.org> > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > > So those who purchase blocks of bandwidth may give N-P to the community if they choose? > > Hmmm, that is probably okay, but, N changes over time (diurnal cycle, etc.). When my N increases to near P then the community must drop off the link because the paying users are using it. > > This sounds a little like whitespace. > > ...Daniel > > > > --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > > > From: Fred Baker (fred) > > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > > To: "" > > Cc: "Jon Crowcroft" , "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "" < end2end-interest at postel.org> > > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 6:00 PM > > > > On Sep 19, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: > > > > > I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first > > place? > > > > The most common reason is related to the diurnal cycle. When > > everyone's asleep, only the backup tool is running. > > > > The one after that is that bandwidth is generally purchased > > (for money) in fixed increments. If I need N bps and my > > options are M and P, where M < N < P, I either accept > > being congested some percentage of the time and go with the > > lower value, or increase to the upper one. In the latter > > case, I never use P-N. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120920/ca1a364c/attachment.html From arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com Thu Sep 20 21:12:56 2012 From: arjuna.sathiaseelan at gmail.com (Arjuna Sathiaseelan) Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2012 05:12:56 +0100 Subject: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 In-Reply-To: <1348181669.386228070@apps.rackspace.com> References: <1348104044.28233.YahooMailClassic@web163001.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1348154682.75968471@apps.rackspace.com> <1348181669.386228070@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: Dear Prof Reed, First of all - I need to thank you for taking your time for responding to this thread. Thanks When I meant rate-limiting - I meant that if access points are only allowed to support say x%of the unused capacity available (FON does similar - it allows only upto 512Kbps) -- but at Less-than-Best-Effort to access only essential sites - no youtube/facebook - but national health service, government forms, wikipedia etc and probably support vital sensor/video data transmission with several offloading/onloading methods..When the paid user comes online and starts using all his capacity, then ofcourse the free user does'nt get anything until he finds another access point to piggyback on.. The notion of CCN would make access to content better by caching @ the edges. Regards Arjuna On 20 September 2012 23:54, wrote: > I assume you are referring to commercial access provider pricing schemes. I > don't think the Internet protocol architecture says *anything* about "rate > limited" behavior. > > > > In the radio world, a transmitter is not rate limited in principle. > Depending on one's scheme for using fiber or copper, there's no obvious rate > limit that makes sense. > > > > Physics has no rate limit built into the behavior of electrons and photons > in real physical systems. It's a constructed engineering concept - embedded > in the engineering culture inherited from people who thought in terms of > "fixed rate" systems, and statistical multiplexing within fixed rate > systems. > > > > For example, my eye has no "fixed rate" perception of the world. > > > > Living in the strait-jacket of commercial offerings is pragmatic, but > commerce can change. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2012 4:52pm > To: dpreed at reed.com > Cc: "" , "Jon > Crowcroft" , dhavey at yahoo.com, "Fred Baker > (fred)" > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 > > Ofcourse if you werent rate limited. > > regardd > arjuna > On Sep 20, 2012 4:24 PM, wrote: >> >> Bandwidth (actually bitrate - bandwidth is a "classic error" too, as us >> radio guys continue to grit our teeth at the confusion...) is useless >> without adequately quick latency. >> >> >> >> Hence, it is unused so that low latency can be present when it is >> (suddenly and unpredictably) needed. >> >> >> >> When someone talks about "filling up bandwidth" - the only image that pops >> into mind is a completely clogged city road system (LA freeways during rush >> hour). Full utilization of pavement - must be the best of all possible >> worlds! >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Daniel Havey" >> Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2012 9:20pm >> To: "Fred Baker (fred)" >> Cc: "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" , "Jon Crowcroft" >> , "" >> >> Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 >> >> So those who purchase blocks of bandwidth may give N-P to the community if >> they choose? >> >> Hmmm, that is probably okay, but, N changes over time (diurnal cycle, >> etc.). When my N increases to near P then the community must drop off the >> link because the paying users are using it. >> >> This sounds a little like whitespace. >> >> ...Daniel >> >> >> >> --- On Wed, 9/19/12, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: >> >> > From: Fred Baker (fred) >> > Subject: Re: [e2e] Free Internet & IPv6 >> > To: "" >> > Cc: "Jon Crowcroft" , "Arjuna Sathiaseelan" >> > , "" >> > >> > Date: Wednesday, September 19, 2012, 6:00 PM >> > >> > On Sep 19, 2012, at 1:07 PM, Daniel Havey wrote: >> > >> > > I wonder why the bandwidth is unused in the first >> > place? >> > >> > The most common reason is related to the diurnal cycle. When >> > everyone's asleep, only the backup tool is running. >> > >> > The one after that is that bandwidth is generally purchased >> > (for money) in fixed increments. If I need N bps and my >> > options are M and P, where M < N < P, I either accept >> > being congested some percentage of the time and go with the >> > lower value, or increase to the upper one. In the latter >> > case, I never use P-N. -- Regards Arjuna http://about.me/arjuna.sathiaseelan From ccie15672 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 24 22:56:48 2012 From: ccie15672 at yahoo.com (Derick Winkworth) Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [e2e] (no subject) Message-ID: <1348552608.65866.YahooMailNeo@web125403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> http://www.emmalovesjames.com/wp-content/plugins/maintenance-mode/google.html?pj=vw.mig&ytr=gng.jyg&mbf=bjno -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120924/b2953f08/attachment.html