[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf
pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 07:13:27 PDT 2012
So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem.
One balloon can cover a very large area.
But that's not the point. There are also other solutions.
The point is that:
MANET Doesn't work.
If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution...
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
> all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
> insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
> nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
>
> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
> the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>
> the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
> provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
> input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
> where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
> help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
> optimse resoruce allocation.
>
>
> the balloons are visible here
> http://xkcd.com/1110/
> if you clock and drag far enough along...
>
>
> In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>
> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>
> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
> >>> hand
> >>>
> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
> >>
> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>>
> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
> >>
> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
> >>> target for the other side
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,
> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just
> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
> >>infrastructure
> >>network.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> your move, sunshine.
> >>>
> >>> In missive
> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>>
> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA
> Packet
> >>> radio
> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for
> >>> anything
> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> communications,
> >>> not the
> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this
> question?
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is
> used
> >>> for.
> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet"
> but I
> >>> am
> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> Cheers,
> >>> >>>> Pars
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker
> typed:
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
> >>> >>>>>
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
> >>> Par
> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work
> (many
> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)
> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
> >>> relevant.
> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or
> has any
> >>> hope
> >>> >>>>> of
> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>>>> >>d/
> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>>>> >>--
> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> cheers
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>> jon
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>> --
> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--
> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>
> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
> >>> class=3D"gmail_=
> >>> >>quote">
> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> style=
> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA
> Packet
> >>> rad=
> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> vehicular
> >>> networ=
> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> >>> target=
> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can
> >>> imagine and=
> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
> intersection
> >>> of o=
> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars
> Mutaf"
> >>> <=
> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
> >>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17
> PM, Jon
> >>> Cro=
> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1px
> >>> #cc=
> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I
> didn't
> >>> chang=
> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we
> really
> >>> ask t=
> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
> >>> themselves wh=
> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
> >>> Internet"=
> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt
> >>> 0.8e=
> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
> choose<br>
> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
> >>> target=3D"_=
> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
> typed:<br>
> >>> >><div><div><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,
> >>> Par<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the
> relevant
> >>> prior=
> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
> >>> Crowcroft), it=
> >>> >> is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
> or has
> >>> any=
> >>> >> hope of<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
> bbiw.net
> >>> </a><b=
> >>> >>r>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> </a><br><=
> >>> >>br>
> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
> >>> http://www.c=
> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
> >>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>>
> >>> cheers
> >>>
> >>> jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>
> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>
> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
> Crowcroft =
> >><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> wrote:<br><blockquote=
> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> soli=
> >>d;padding-left:1ex">
> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
> >>hand<br>
> >><br>
> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users'
> task=
> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
> them.<br><br>=
> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8e=
> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>
> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
> >><br>
> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in
> a di=
> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the
> netw=
> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
> probability to=
> >> work.<br>
> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt =
> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do
> not =
> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do
> obscur=
> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most
> expensive=
> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt =
> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >><br>
> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
> dangerous*.=
> >> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote
> class=
> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px
> solid rg=
> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>
> >>your move, sunshine.<br>
> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
> class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padd=
> >>ing-left:1ex">
> >>In missive
> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
> >>il.<br>
> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
> >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">jon.crowcroft@=
> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
> since AR=
> >>PA Packet radio<br>
> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> veh=
> >>icular<br>
> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"
> http://thing=
> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> communi=
> >>cations, not the<br>
> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a
> href=3D=
> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft
> <<br>
> >>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowc=
> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you"
> pos=
> >>er syndrome<br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable
> solution,<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask
> thi=
> >>s question?<br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves
> wha=
> >>t it is used for.<br>
> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want
> for th=
> >>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
> >>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> argume=
> >>nt(s))<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem
> it =
> >>solves<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever
> vers=
> >>ion you choose<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at d=
> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
> typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> wrot=
> >>e:<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage
> you to=
> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was
> give=
> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this
> thr=
> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> of<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not
> relevant=
> >>...<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>> --<br>
> >>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blan=
> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
> See:<br><br><a hr=
> >>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://w=
> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a
> href=3D=
> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/ma=
> >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
>
> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>quote"><br>
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
> dir=3D3=
> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk
> </a><=
> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> class=3D3D"=
> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> solid;padding-=
> >>left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
> sinc=
> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> vehic=
> >>ular networ=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a
> href=3D3D=
> >>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it
> </a>&quo=
> >>t; target=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> target=3D=
> >>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we can
> imag=
> >>ine and=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
> inters=
> >>ection of o=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012
> 17:4=
> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> pars.mutaf at gmail.=
> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
> >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
> type=3D3D"attribution&q=
> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> #ccc s=
> >>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br><div
> class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a
> href=3D=
> >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft=
> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a></a>&gt;</span>=
> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D3D"margin:=
> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot;
> poser sy=
> >>ndrome<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable
> solution,<br><br>
> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>problem (or the
> assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the
> Intern=
> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example,
> they di=
> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we
> want f=
> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
> <br><br>=
> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote
> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> argument(s))<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
> solves<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version
> you c=
> >>hoose<br><br>
> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> href=3D"mailto=
> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>"
> tar=
> >>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
> typed:<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> wrote:&=
> >>lt;br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a
> href=3D3D=
> >>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"
> target=3D3D"=
> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
> >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a>&=
> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt;
> I e=
> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1
> point=
> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly
> relevant.<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this
> thread=
> >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not
> relevant...=
> >><br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
> InternetWorking<br>=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a
> href=3D"http:=
> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
> target=3D3D"_b=
> >>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> </a><=
> >>;/a><b=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>r><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
> >>=A0>><span><font
> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span
> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>b"><font
> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
> >>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> tar=
> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org
> </a>&q=
> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a></=
> >>a><br><=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>br><br>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br
> clear=3D3D"=
> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
> href=3D"http://=
> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blank">on=
> >>tent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> href=
> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-b=
> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org
> </a></a>&l=
> >>t;br><br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
> >><br>
> >>=A0cheers<br>
> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >><br>
> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=
> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.cont=
> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>
> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>
> cheers
>
> jon
>
>
--
http://www.content-based-science.org
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