[e2e] Discrete IP - retake

Jon Crowcroft Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
Wed Sep 19 08:41:53 PDT 2012


yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity

i dont. 

lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones 
running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
and send hashtag data  with sensor net is about 7 days...

coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),  
it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with
the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....

something mon golfier frere hasn't

being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is
where and what resources are still working would be good

i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters
(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)


In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:

 >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity.  Which seems like a big 
 >>assumption.  Not much of a disaster if you still have power.
 >>
 >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
 >>
 >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
 >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
 >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
 >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
 >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
 >>>
 >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
 >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
 >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
 >>>
 >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
 >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
 >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
 >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
 >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
 >>>optimse resoruce allocation.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>the balloons are visible here
 >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/
 >>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
 >>>
 >>>
 >>>In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
 >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
 >>>
 >>>  >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
 >>>  >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
 >>>  >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
 >>>  >>> great detail,  people have to make do with resources they have to
 >>>  >>> hand
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
 >>>  >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
 >>>  >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
 >>>  >>> target for the other side
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,
 >>>  >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just
 >>>  >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
 >>>  >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
 >>>  >>infrastructure
 >>>  >>network.
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>> your move, sunshine.
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>> In missive 
 >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
 >>>  >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
 >>>  >>>  >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
 >>>  >>>  >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
 >>>  >>> radio
 >>>  >>>  >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
 >>>  >>>  >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
 >>>  >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>  >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for
 >>>  >>> anything
 >>>  >>>  >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications,
 >>>  >>> not the
 >>>  >>>  >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
 >>>  >>>  >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
 >>>  >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
 >>>  >>>  >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used
 >>>  >>> for.
 >>>  >>>  >>>> They cannot explain.
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the 
 >>>Internet"  but I
 >>>  >>> am
 >>>  >>>  >>>> not sure if I should do this.
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>> Cheers,
 >>>  >>>  >>>> Pars
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>> In missive <
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> 
 >>>CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
 >>>  >>> Par
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>> s Mutaf typed:
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>   >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> pointers were given)
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>   >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
 >>>  >>> relevant.
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>> it is exactly relevant.
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, 
 >>>or has any
 >>>  >>> hope
 >>>  >>>  >>>>> of
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>d/
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>--
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>  Dave Crocker
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>  Brandenburg InternetWorking
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  >>  bbiw.net
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>  cheers
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>    jon
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>> --
 >>>  >>>  >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>--
 >>>  >>>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
 >>>  >>>  >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
 >>>  >>>  >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
 >>>  >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
 >>>  >>>  >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
 >>>  >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
 >>>  >>>  >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
 >>>  >>> class=3D"gmail_=
 >>>  >>>  >>quote">
 >>>  >>>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
 >>>  >>> dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
 >>>  >>>  >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
 >>>  >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
 >>>  >>>  >>.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
 >>>  >>> style=
 >>>  >>>  >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>>  >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since 
 >>>ARPA Packet
 >>>  >>> rad=
 >>>  >>>  >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
 >>>  >>> networ=
 >>>  >>>  >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
 >>>  >>>  >><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it"
 >>>  >>> target=
 >>>  >>>  >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can
 >>>  >>> imagine and=
 >>>  >>>  >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection
 >>>  >>> of o=
 >>>  >>>  >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars 
 >>>Mutaf&quot;
 >>>  >>> &lt=
 >>>  >>>  >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
 >>>  >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
 >>>  >>>  >>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
 >>>  >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
 >>>  >>>  >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
 >>>  >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 
 >>>7:17 PM, Jon
 >>>  >>> Cro=
 >>>  >>>  >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
 >>>  >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
 >>>  >>>  >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>
 >>>  >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
 >>>  >>>  >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 
 >>>.8ex;border-left:1px
 >>>  >>> #cc=
 >>>  >>>  >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br>
 >>>  >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>>  >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t
 >>>  >>> chang=
 >>>  >>>  >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really
 >>>  >>> ask t=
 >>>  >>>  >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
 >>>  >>> themselves wh=
 >>>  >>>  >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the
 >>>  >>> Internet&quot;=
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
 >>>  >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
 >>>  >>>  >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
 >>>  >>> 0.8e=
 >>>  >>>  >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>>  >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
 >>>  >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>>  >>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
 >>>  >>> target=3D"_=
 >>>  >>>  >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
 >>>  >>>  >><div><div><br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
 >>>  >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
 >>>  >>>  >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
 >>>  >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
 >>>  >>>  >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
 >>>  >>> Par<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant
 >>>  >>> prior=
 >>>  >>>  >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
 >>>  >>> Crowcroft), it=
 >>>  >>>  >> is not relevant.<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has 
 >>>been, or has
 >>>  >>> any=
 >>>  >>>  >> hope of<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
 >>>  >>> </a><b=
 >>>  >>>  >>r>
 >>>  >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>>  >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
 >>>  >>>  >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
 >>>  >>>  >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
 >>>  >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>>  >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
 >>>  >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
 >>>  >>>  >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
 >>>  >>> http://www.content-based-s=
 >>>  >>>  >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>>  >>> </a><br><=
 >>>  >>>  >>br>
 >>>  >>>  >></font></span></blockquote></div>
 >>>  >>>  >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
 >>>  >>> http://www.c=
 >>>  >>>  >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
 >>>  >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
 >>>  >>>  >>e.org</a><br><br>
 >>>  >>>  >>
 >>>  >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>  cheers
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>    jon
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>--
 >>>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
 >>>  >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
 >>>  >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon 
 >>>Crowcroft =
 >>>  >><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=
 >>>  >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> 
 >>>wrote:<br><blockquote=
 >>>  >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px 
 >>>#ccc soli=
 >>>  >>d;padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
 >>>  >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
 >>>  >>hand<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
 >>>  >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
 >>>  >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the 
 >>>users&#39; task=
 >>>  >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare 
 >>>them.<br><br>=
 >>>  >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 
 >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=
 >>>  >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
 >>>  >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated 
 >>>users in a di=
 >>>  >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest 
 >>>of the netw=
 >>>  >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low 
 >>>probability to=
 >>>  >> work.<br>
 >>>  >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" 
 >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
 >>>  >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
 >>>  >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I 
 >>>personally do not =
 >>>  >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they 
 >>>do obscur=
 >>>  >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most 
 >>>expensive=
 >>>  >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
 >>>  >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" 
 >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
 >>>  >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
 >>>  >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
 >>>  >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily 
 >>>dangerous*.=
 >>>  >> Just use the infrastructure 
 >>><br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
 >>>  >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 
 >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
 >>>  >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>your move, sunshine.<br>
 >>>  >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote 
 >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
 >>>  >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid 
 >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=
 >>>  >>ing-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>In missive 
 >>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
 >>>  >>il.<br>
 >>>  >>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
 >>>  >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
 >>>  >>g12602.html" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
 >>>  >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=
 >>>  >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases 
>exist since AR=
 >>>  >>PA Packet radio<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery 
 >>>networks, veh=
 >>>  >>icular<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a 
 >>>href=3D"http://thing=
 >>>  >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the union of 
 >>>all communi=
 >>>  >>cations, not the<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; 
 >>>&lt;<a href=3D=
 >>>  >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
 >>>  >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for 
 >>>you&quot; pos=
 >>>  >>er syndrome<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable 
 >>>solution,<=
 >>>  >>br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we 
 >>>really ask thi=
 >>>  >>s question?<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask 
 >>>themselves wha=
 >>>  >>t it is used for.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we 
 >>>want for th=
 >>>  >>e Internet&quot; =A0but I am<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the 
 >>>E2E argume=
 >>>  >>nt(s))<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the 
 >>>problem it =
 >>>  >>solves<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, 
 >>>whichever vers=
 >>>  >>ion you choose<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d=
 >>>  >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon 
 >>>Crowcroft wrot=
 >>>  >>e:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
 >>>  >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
 >>>  >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, Par<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I 
 >>>encourage you to=
 >>>  >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 
 >>>pointer was give=
 >>>  >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of 
 >>>whether this thr=
 >>>  >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was 
 >>>not relevant=
 >>>  >>...<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=
 >>>  >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a 
 >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=
 >>>  >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" 
 >>>target=3D"_blan=
 >>>  >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. 
 >>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=
 >>>  >>ef=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w=
 >>>  >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a 
 >>>href=3D=
 >>>  >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
 >>>  >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=
 >>>  >>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft 
 >>>&lt;span dir=3D3=
 >>>  >>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
 >>>  >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; 
 >>>target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=
 >>>  >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt=
 >>>  >>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote 
 >>>class=3D3D&quot=
 >>>  >>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc 
 >>>solid;padding-=
 >>>  >>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases 
 >>>exist sinc=
 >>>  >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery 
 >>>networks, vehic=
 >>>  >>ular networ=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a 
 >>>href=3D3D=
 >>>  >>&quot;<a href=3D"http://thing.it" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=
 >>>  >>t; target=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://thing.it" 
 >>>target=3D=
 >>>  >>"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anything 
 >>>we can imag=
 >>>  >>ine and=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communications, not 
 >>>the inters=
 >>>  >>ection of o=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 
 >>>2012 17:4=
 >>>  >>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
 >>>  >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot; 
 >>>target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=
 >>>  >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br 
 >>>type=3D3D&quot;attribution&q=
 >>>  >>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 
 >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
 >>>  >>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div 
 >>>class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=
 >>>  >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span 
 >>>dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D=
 >>>  >>3D&quot;mailto:<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
 >>>  >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft=
 >>>  >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt=
 >>>  >>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; 
 >>>style=3D3D&quot;margin:=
 >>>  >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for 
 >>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=
 >>>  >>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the 
 >>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=
 >>>  >>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t chang=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for 
 >>>the Intern=
 >>>  >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for 
 >>>example, they di=
 >>>  >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do 
 >>>we want f=
 >>>  >>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. 
 >>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=
 >>>  >>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote 
 >>>class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=
 >>>  >>t; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid 
 >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=
 >>>  >>gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E 
 >>>argument(s))&lt;br&=
 >>>  >>gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem it 
 >>>solves&lt;br&=
 >>>  >>gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever 
 >>>version you c=
 >>>  >>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto=
 >>>  >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&quot; 
 >>>tar=
 >>>  >>get=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
 >>>  >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker 
 >>>typed:&lt=
 >>>  >>;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon 
 >>>Crowcroft wrote:&=
 >>>  >>lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a 
 >>>href=3D3D=
 >>>  >>&quot;mailto:<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
 >>>  >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
 >>>  >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&quot; 
 >>>target=3D3D&quot=
 >>>  >>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
 >>>  >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&=
 >>>  >>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 
 >>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=
 >>>  >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 
 >>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=
 >>>  >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly 
 >>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=
 >>>  >>br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether 
 >>>this thread=
 >>>  >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not 
 >>>relevant...=
 >>>  >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg 
 >>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a 
 >>>href=3D"http:=
 >>>  >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot; 
 >>>target=3D3D&quot;_b=
 >>>  >>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&lt=
 >>>  >>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font 
 >>>color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=
 >>>  >>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span 
 >>>class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br=
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font 
 >>>color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=
 >>>  >>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a 
 >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar=
 >>>  >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://cience.org" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
 >>>  >>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a 
 >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
 >>>  >>cience.org" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>&lt;/=
 >>>  >>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br 
 >>>clear=3D3D&quot;=
 >>>  >>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a 
 >>>href=3D"http://=
 >>>  >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">on=
 >>>  >>tent-based-science.org</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=
 >>>  >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=
 >>>  >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://e.org" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=
 >>>  >>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>=A0cheers<br>
 >>>  >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
 >>>  >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=
 >>>  >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" 
 >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
 >>>  >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
 >>>
 >>>  cheers
 >>>
 >>>    jon
 >>

 cheers

   jon



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