[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Jon Crowcroft
Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
Wed Sep 19 09:34:37 PDT 2012
the goal is to have less people die - our s/w works in existing
phones - having it deploy will cost zero (unlike ballons) and
saving more than zero lives is quite a good achievement for
somethign costing zero, but it also delivers a situational
awareness to the emergency services when they eventually arrive
meanwhile, back on discrete IP, the problem you have to solve when
you have a set of domains running different protocols, is a system
tp provide routing between translation points - this is something
we did before the internet was called the internet - back in 1980,
there were several different protocol families in the world - e.g.
tthe public and academic packet switched networks running the X.25
network ayer protocol, networks running DECNET, nets running SNA
and so on - so we design protocoll translaters - and we deisnged a
name based scheme to provide mapping from application layer down
to transport, to beable to name the "nexthop" in the multiprotocol
route (the ideas in this, Yellow Book Transport Service and name
based route construction is visible in the two ideas I mentioned,
Paul Francis' IPNL and Ran Atkinson's work on ILNP - I encourage
you to have a look at those, as they speak to the original
document you circulated...and fill in a lot of details on how to
build such a system.
In missive <CACQuieZsrj5i1XJoruVLam_O4cNYsk0ZU_OvbY_sG0WEx_r+og at mail.gmail.
com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft
>><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
>>>
>>> i dont.
>>>
>>> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
>>> running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
>>> and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days...
>>>
>>> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
>>> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
>>> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),
>>> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with
>>> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....
>>>
>>
>>
>>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot
>>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> something mon golfier frere hasn't
>>>
>>> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is
>>> where and what resources are still working would be good
>>>
>>> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters
>>> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)
>>>
>>>
>>> In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:
>>>
>>> >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big
>>> >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power.
>>> >>
>>> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
>>> >>
>>> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
>>> >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
>>> >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
>>> >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
>>> >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
>>> >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
>>> >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
>>> >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
>>> >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
>>> >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
>>> >>>optimse resoruce allocation.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>the balloons are visible here
>>> >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/
>>> >>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>In missive
>>> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
>>> >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied
>>> in
>>> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
>>> >>> >>> hand
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
>>> japan,
>>> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
>>> desribed
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
>>> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to
>>> work.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
>>> great
>>> >>> >>> target for the other side
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really
>>> research,
>>> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can
>>> just
>>> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
>>> >>> >>infrastructure
>>> >>> >>network.
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> your move, sunshine.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> In missive
>>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
>>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>> >>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
>>> ARPA Packet
>>> >>> >>> radio
>>> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
>>> vehicular
>>> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by
>>> definition, for
>>> >>> >>> anything
>>> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
>>> communications,
>>> >>> >>> not the
>>> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>> >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this
>>> question?
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what
>>> it is used
>>> >>> >>> for.
>>> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
>>> >>>Internet" but I
>>> >>> >>> am
>>> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers,
>>> >>> >>> >>>> Pars
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
>>> choose
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker
>>> typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>>CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> >>> >>> Par
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior
>>> work (many
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it
>>> is not
>>> >>> >>> relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
>>> >>>or has any
>>> >>> >>> hope
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> of
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>--
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>> --
>>> >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>--
>>> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
>>> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
>>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
>>> >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
>>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=
>>> >>> >>> >>quote">
>>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
>>> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
>>> >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>> >>> style=
>>> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
>>> >>>ARPA Packet
>>> >>> >>> rad=
>>> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
>>> vehicular
>>> >>> >>> networ=
>>> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>> >>> >>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"
>>> http://thing.it"
>>> >>> >>> target=
>>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we
>>> can
>>> >>> >>> imagine and=
>>> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
>>> intersection
>>> >>> >>> of o=
>>> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars
>>> >>>Mutaf"
>>> >>> >>> <=
>>> >>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
>>> >>> >>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
>>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
>>> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at
>>> >>>7:17 PM, Jon
>>> >>> >>> Cro=
>>> >>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
>>> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>>> >>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
>>> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
>>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px
>>> >>> >>> #cc=
>>> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser
>>> syndrome<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I
>>> didn't
>>> >>> >>> chang=
>>> >>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did
>>> we really
>>> >>> >>> ask t=
>>> >>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>> >>> >>> themselves wh=
>>> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
>>> >>> >>> Internet"=
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>>> >>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
>>> >>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>> >>> >>> 0.8e=
>>> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
>>> choose<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_=
>>> >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
>>> typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><div><div><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
>>> >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
>>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
>>> >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
>>> </a>>,
>>> >>> >>> Par<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the
>>> relevant
>>> >>> >>> prior=
>>> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it=
>>> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has
>>> >>>been, or has
>>> >>> >>> any=
>>> >>> >>> >> hope of<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
>>> bbiw.net
>>> >>> >>> </a><b=
>>> >>> >>> >>r>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
>>> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
>>> >>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
>>> >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">
>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>> </a><br><=
>>> >>> >>> >>br>
>>> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
>>> href=3D"
>>> >>> >>> http://www.c=
>>> >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
>>> >>> >>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> cheers
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> jon
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--
>>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
>>> >>>Crowcroft =
>>> >>> >><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>> target=
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>>> >>>wrote:<br><blockquote=
>>> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>> >>>#ccc soli=
>>> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied
>>> in<br>
>>> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have
>>> to<br>
>>> >>> >>hand<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
>>> japan,<br>
>>> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
>>> desribed<br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the
>>> >>>users' task=
>>> >>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
>>> >>>them.<br><br>=
>>> >>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt
>>> >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=
>>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated
>>> >>>users in a di=
>>> >>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest
>>> >>>of the netw=
>>> >>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
>>> >>>probability to=
>>> >>> >> work.<br>
>>> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
>>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
>>> great<br>
>>> >>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I
>>> >>>personally do not =
>>> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they
>>> >>>do obscur=
>>> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most
>>> >>>expensive=
>>> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
>>> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
>>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a
>>> big<br>
>>> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
>>> >>>dangerous*.=
>>> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure
>>> >>><br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
>>> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>> >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
>>> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>your move, sunshine.<br>
>>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
>>> >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
>>> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
>>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=
>>> >>> >>ing-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>In missive
>>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
>>> >>> >>il.<br>
>>> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><a
>>> >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
>>> >>> >>g12602.html"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
>>> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><<a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=
>>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
>>> >exist since AR=
>>> >>> >>PA Packet radio<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
>>> >>>networks, veh=
>>> >>> >>icular<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a
>>> >>>href=3D"http://thing=
>>> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for
>>> anything<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of
>>> >>>all communi=
>>> >>> >>cations, not the<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf"
>>> >>><<a href=3D=
>>> >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>>
>>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> <<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
>>> >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as
>>> the<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for
>>> >>>you" pos=
>>> >>> >>er syndrome<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable
>>> >>>solution,<=
>>> >>> >>br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we
>>> >>>really ask thi=
>>> >>> >>s question?<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>> >>>themselves wha=
>>> >>> >>t it is used for.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we
>>> >>>want for th=
>>> >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the
>>> >>>E2E argume=
>>> >>> >>nt(s))<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the
>>> >>>problem it =
>>> >>> >>solves<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve,
>>> >>>whichever vers=
>>> >>> >>ion you choose<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d=
>>> >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
>>> typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>> >>>Crowcroft wrot=
>>> >>> >>e:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> <a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
>>> >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
>>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
>>> >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I
>>> >>>encourage you to=
>>> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1
>>> >>>pointer was give=
>>> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of
>>> >>>whether this thr=
>>> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was
>>> >>>not relevant=
>>> >>> >>...<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg
>>> InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
>>> target=
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> --<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a
>>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blan=
>>> >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
>>> >>>See:<br><br><a hr=
>>> >>> >>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w=
>>> >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a
>>> >>>href=3D=
>>> >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
>>> >>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
>>> >>>
>>> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
>>> >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>quote"><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>><span dir=3D3=
>>> >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>>> >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"
>>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
>>> >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a><=
>>> >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
>>> >>>class=3D3D"=
>>> >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> >>>solid;padding-=
>>> >>> >>left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
>>> >>>exist sinc=
>>> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
>>> >>>networks, vehic=
>>> >>> >>ular networ=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a
>>> >>>href=3D3D=
>>> >>> >>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=
>>> >>> >>t; target=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>> >>>target=3D=
>>> >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything
>>> >>>we can imag=
>>> >>> >>ine and=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not
>>> >>>the inters=
>>> >>> >>ection of o=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep
>>> >>>2012 17:4=
>>> >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
>>> >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"
>>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
>>> >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
>>> >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q=
>>> >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
>>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
>>> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div
>>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
>>> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span
>>> >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
>>> >>> >>3D"mailto:<a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft=
>>> >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>>> </a></a>&gt;</span>=
>>> >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>>style=3D3D"margin:=
>>> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for
>>> >>>you&quot; poser sy=
>>> >>> >>ndrome<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable
>>> solution,<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the
>>> >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
>>> >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for
>>> >>>the Intern=
>>> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for
>>> >>>example, they di=
>>> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do
>>> >>>we want f=
>>> >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>><br><br>=
>>> >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote
>>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
>>> >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
>>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
>>> >>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
>>> >>>argument(s))<br&=
>>> >>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
>>> >>>solves<br&=
>>> >>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever
>>> >>>version you c=
>>> >>> >>hoose<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto=
>>> >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
>>> </a>"
>>> >>>tar=
>>> >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>blank"><a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
>>> >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
>>> >>>typed:<=
>>> >>> >>;br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>> >>>Crowcroft wrote:&=
>>> >>> >>lt;br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a
>>> >>>href=3D3D=
>>> >>> >>"mailto:<a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
>>> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
>>> >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"
>>> >>>target=3D3D"=
>>> >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><a
>>> >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
>>> >>> >>ail.gmail.com">
>>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&=
>>> >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf
>>> typed:<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
>>> >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e=
>>> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
>>> >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point=
>>> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly
>>> >>>relevant.<br><=
>>> >>> >>br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether
>>> >>>this thread=
>>> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not
>>> >>>relevant...=
>>> >>> >><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
>>> >>>InternetWorking<br>=
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a
>>> >>>href=3D"http:=
>>> >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
>>> >>>target=3D3D"_b=
>>> >>> >>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><=
>>> >>> >>;/a><b=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>r><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><span><font
>>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
>>> >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span
>>> >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font
>>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
>>> >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
>>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar=
>>> >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
>>> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a
>>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>> >>> >>cience.org"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></=
>>> >>> >>a><br><=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>br><br>
>>> >>>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br
>>> >>>clear=3D3D"=
>>> >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
>>> >>>href=3D"http://=
>>> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">on=
>>> >>> >>tent-based-science.org</a>"
>>> target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=
>>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=
>>> >>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&l=
>>> >>> >>t;br><br><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0cheers<br>
>>> >>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>--
>>> <br><a href=
>>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
>>> >>> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>>> >>>
>>> >>> cheers
>>> >>>
>>> >>> jon
>>> >>
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> jon
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>
>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Cro=
>>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
>>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><bloc=
>>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity<br>
>><br>
>>i dont.<br>
>><br>
>>lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones<br>
>>running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are<br>
>>and send hashtag data =A0with sensor net is about 7 days...<br>
>><br>
>>coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and<br>
>>landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see<br>
>>for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),<br>
>>it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with<br>
>>the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....<br></blockquote><di=
>>v><br><br>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you ca=
>>nnot<br>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply. <br>
>><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>><br>
>>something mon golfier frere hasn't<br>
>><br>
>>being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is<b=
>>r>
>>where and what resources are still working would be good<br>
>><br>
>>i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters<br=
>>>
>>(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)<br=
>>>
>><br>
>><br>
>>In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:<br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
>>=A0>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. =A0Which seems lik=
>>e a big<br>
>>=A0>>assumption. =A0Not much of a disaster if you still have power.<b=
>>r>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers)=
>> in<br>
>>=A0>>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br>
>>=A0>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skills=
>>et,<br>
>>=A0>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during dis=
>>asters<br>
>>=A0>>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net =
>>for<br>
>>=A0>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could =
>>also<br>
>>=A0>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awaren=
>>ess<br>
>>=A0>>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams=
>> find<br>
>>=A0>>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to p=
>>rovide<br>
>>=A0>>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for ho=
>>w to<br>
>>=A0>>>optimse resoruce allocation.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>>the balloons are visible here<br>
>>=A0>>><a href=3D"http://xkcd.com/1110/" target=3D"_blank">http://x=
>>kcd.com/1110/</a><br>
>>=A0>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>>In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdc=
>>z+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.<br>
>>=A0>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=
>>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>>">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whu=
>>ch have been studied in<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do wit=
>>h resources they have to<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> hand<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g a=
>>ll of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> california) and not be prepared with giant =
>>ballons as you desribed<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' tas=
>>k of course.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disas=
>>ter scenario<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are too far away from the rest of t=
>>he network.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low =
>>probability to work.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant=
>> ballon idea is a great<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target for the other side<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is=
>> not really research,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>because they do obscure things that we do not ev=
>>en know. They can just<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do=
>> not care.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant=
>> ballon would be a big<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnel=
>>s and under bridges.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*=
>>. Just use the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>infrastructure<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>network.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> your move, sunshine.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> In missive<br>
>>=A0>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail=
>>.gmail.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=
>>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charse=
>>t=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon. =
>>See:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/m=
>>ail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.i=
>>etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM=
>>, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcr=
>>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, sur=
>>e. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> radio<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield networks,=
>> disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some actually in=
>> use ad deployed.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't for =
>>just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by =
>>definition, for<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> anything<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and realize.=
>>..it is the union of all communications,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> not the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one notion =
>>with one technology.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "=
>>;Pars Mutaf" <<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gm=
>>ail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at=
>> 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.C=
>>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we use=
>>d to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my problem is=
>> too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, whenever=
>> you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of the p=
>>roblem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the ass=
>>umptions)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't change =
>>the problem:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for the=
>> Internet? Did we really ask this question?<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for example,=
>> they did not ask themselves what it is used<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> for.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new thr=
>>ead "What do we want for the<br>
>>=A0>>>Internet" =A0but I<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> am<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I should do=
>> this.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice thi=
>>ngs about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is reall=
>>y hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way it still d=
>>oesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe no=
>>t IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive <<a h=
>>ref=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net<=
>>/a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/=
>>2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> In =
>>missive <<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>><a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tF=
>>cP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5Pg=
>>T+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> s M=
>>utaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0=
>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were given=
>>)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0=
>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> it =
>>is exactly relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in the b=
>>roader sense of whether this thread has been,<br>
>>=A0>>>or has any<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> hope<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> of<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>being, c=
>>onstructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave=
>> Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Bran=
>>denburg InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a h=
>>ref=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> --<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"http://www.c=
>>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc=
>>e.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-ba=
>>sed-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>=
>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=
>>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=
>>=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quote=
>>d-printable<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon. =
>>See:<br><br><a href=3D3D"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target=
>>=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/m=
>>sg12602.html"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D=
>>" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h=
>>tml</a><br><br><br><br><div<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>quote"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM=
>>, Jon Crowcroft <span<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
>>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"m=
>>ailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcr=
>>oft at cl=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" ta=
>>rget=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br&g=
>>t;<blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> style=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
>>der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET example,=
>> sure. Many use cases exist since<br>
>>=A0>>>ARPA Packet<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> rad=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, d=
>>isaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> networ=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad dep=
>>loyed.</p><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet isn&#3=
>>9;t for just one <a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D=
>>"_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a hr=
>>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by defi=
>>nition, for anything we can<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> imagine and=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union of al=
>>l communications, not the intersection<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> of o=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one technology.&l=
>>t;/p><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_qu=
>>ote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars<br>
>>=A0>>>Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> &lt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a =
>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf=
>>@gmail=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
>>;br type=3D3D"attribution"><blockquote<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0=
>> 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div clas=
>>s=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at<br>
>>=A0>>>7:17 PM, Jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Cro=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"lt=
>>r">&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.u=
>>k">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">=
>>;<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</=
>>a></a>&gt;</span><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quo=
>>te" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0<br>
>>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> #cc=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"&g=
>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk abo=
>>ut as the<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard=
>> even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you offer a =
>>workable solution,<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem) chang=
>>es the<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the assumptions)<=
>>br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> chang=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e the problem:<br><br&g=
>>t;What do we want for the Internet? Did we really<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> ask t=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>his question?<br><br>=
>>;Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> themselves wh=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They cannot e=
>>xplain. <br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a new th=
>>read &quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I sho=
>>uld do this. <br><br>Cheers,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br></div><blockquote=
>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> 0.8e=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
>>204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about IP =
>>(and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to cha=
>>nge the problem it solves<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;=
>>t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<b=
>>r><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D=
>>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.20=
>>30808 at dcrocker.net</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>blank"><a href=3D"mailto=
>>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>=
>>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div><div><br>=
>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/201=
>>2 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In=
>> missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2X=
>>V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmai=
>>l.com</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-=
>>s=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWf=
>>M58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1t=
>>FcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s =
>>Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> prior=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were given)=
>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it=
>> is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broa=
>>der sense of whether this thread has<br>
>>=A0>>>been, or has<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> any=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, cons=
>>tructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave =
>>Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brand=
>>enburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a=
>> href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.n=
>>et</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" t=
>>arget=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><b=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>r><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0che=
>>ers<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span><font color=3D3D&=
>>quot;#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></font></span></b=
>>lockquote></div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><=
>>span<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>b"><font color=3D3D&q=
>>uot;#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" targ=
>>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" ta=
>>rget=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a hr=
>>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.co=
>>ntent-based-science.org</a><br>
>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><br><=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></font></span></b=
>>lockquote></div><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>></blockquote></div>&=
>>lt;br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a h=
>>ref=3D3D"<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">=
>>http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-s=
>>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3=
>>D"_blank"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc"=
>> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org" target=
>>=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--=
>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"=
>> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On =
>>Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon<br>
>>=A0>>>Crowcroft =3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<=
>>a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.C=
>>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:Jon=
>>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;&l=
>>t;/span><br>
>>=A0>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D&qu=
>>ot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>>=A0>>>#ccc soli=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch ha=
>>ve been studied in<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with r=
>>esources they have to<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>hand<br><br>
=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of=
>> indonesia, japan,<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballo=
>>ns as you desribed<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g=
>>t;Preparing the balloons is not the<br>
>>=A0>>>users&#39; task=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> of course. <br><br>Organizations li=
>>ke red cross will prepare<br>
>>=A0>>>them.<br><br>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"=
>>gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt<br>
>>=A0>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
>>-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br&g=
>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br=
>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g=
>>t;<br>MANET may not work for isolated<br>
>>=A0>>>users in a di=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are too f=
>>ar away from the rest<br>
>>=A0>>>of the netw=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only us=
>>eless, it has a very low<br>
>>=A0>>>probability to=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> work.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=
>>=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
>>ding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ball=
>>on idea is a great<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>target for the other side<br></blockquo=
>>te><div><br><br>I<br>
>>=A0>>>personally do not =3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really research=
>>,<br>because they<br>
>>=A0>>>do obscur=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can just=
>> <br>use the most<br>
>>=A0>>>expensive=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=
>>=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
>>ding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ball=
>>on would be a big<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and=
>> under bridges.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g=
>>t;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily<br>
>>=A0>>>dangerous*.=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> Just use the infrastructure<br>
>>=A0>>><br>network.<br><br>=3DA0</div><b=
>>lockquote class=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"mar=
>>gin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>=A0>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br></blockquote><div></div=
>>><div></div><blockquote<br>
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-le=
>>ft:1px solid<br>
>>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ing-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive<br>
>>=A0>>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@=
>>mail.gma=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>il.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=
>>b8d<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; c=
>>harset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div class=3D3D"h5">=
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough =
>>Jon. See:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w=
>>eb/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/=
>>web/manet/current/ms=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>g12602.html"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.=
>>org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail=
>>-archive/web/manet/c=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:=
>>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam=
>>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank=
>>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET exa=
>>mple, sure. Many use cases<br>
>>>exist since AR=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>PA Packet radio<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield =
>>networks, disaster recovery<br>
>>=A0>>>networks, veh=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>icular<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some ac=
>>tually in use ad deployed.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&a=
>>mp;#39;t for just one <a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing" target=3D"_blank">ht=
>>tp://thing</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.it" target=3D3D"_blank"><a hr=
>>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by defi=
>>nition, for anything<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and=
>> realize...it is the union of<br>
>>=A0>>>all communi=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>cations, not the<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of on=
>>e notion with one technology.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:=
>>48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>>&lt;<a href=3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
>>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.c=
>>om">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Se=
>>p 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam=
>>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:roft at cl.cam.ac.uk">roft at cl.cam=
>>.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th=
>>is is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &a=
>>mp;quot;my problem is too hard even for<br>
>>=A0>>>you&quot; pos=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>er syndrome<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ba=
>>sically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
>>=A0>>>solution,<=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th=
>>e poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pr=
>>oblem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&=
>>amp;#39;t change the problem:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we=
>> want for the Internet? Did we<br>
>>=A0>>>really ask thi=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>s question?<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET=
>> for example, they did not ask<br>
>>=A0>>>themselves wha=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>t it is used for.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They canno=
>>t explain.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would st=
>>art a new thread &quot;What do we<br>
>>=A0>>>want for th=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I am<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure i=
>>f I should do this.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br=
>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on=
>>e of the nice things about IP (and the<br>
>>=A0>>>E2E argume=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>nt(s))<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is=
>> that it is really hard to change the<br>
>>=A0>>>problem it =3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>solves<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in=
>> a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,<br>
>>=A0>>>whichever vers=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ion you choose<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (w=
>>ell, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In=
>> missive &lt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d">=
>>50589DCC.2030808 at d</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://crocker.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>>>crocker.net</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<=
>>;br><br>
>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
>>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &l=
>>t;a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae=
>>C2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.=
>>gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>">CACQuiebE-sXD=
>>ZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
>>om">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
>>=A0>>>encourage you to=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> read the relevant prior work (many<br><br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; po=
>>inters were given)<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1<br>
>>=A0>>>pointer was give=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of<br>
>>=A0>>>whether this thr=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of=
>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was<br>
>>=A0>>>not relevant=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>...<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"=
>> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbi=
>>w.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br&g=
>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.o=
>>rg" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=
>>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www=
>>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scie=
>>nce.org</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a hre=
>>f=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.con=
>>tent-based-science.org</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blan=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>k"><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></=
>>a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--2=
>>0cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; ch=
>>arset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: =
>>quoted-printable<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough =
>>Jon.<br>
>>=A0>>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a href=
>>=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D<=
>>/a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://w" target=
>>=3D"_blank">http://w</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_=
>>blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/curr=
>>ent/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
>>=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.=
>>org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12=
>>602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div=
>> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<=
>>br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:=
>>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>>>&lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&=
>>;lt;a hr=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:&=
>>lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam=
>>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>"><a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam=
>>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D3D"<a hr=
>>ef=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk=
>>" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wro=
>>te:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0=
>> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>=A0>>>solid;padding-=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the M=
>>ANET example, sure. Many use cases<br>
>>=A0>>>exist sinc=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networ=
>>ks, disaster recovery<br>
>>=A0>>>networks, vehic=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use a=
>>d deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The intern=
>>et isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http:/=
>>/thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"=
>> target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quo=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>t; target=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&=
>>;quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_b=
>>lank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it=
>>" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definit=
>>ion, for anything<br>
>>=A0>>>we can imag=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ine and=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union =
>>of all communications, not<br>
>>=A0>>>the inters=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technolo=
>>gy.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&am=
>>p;quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep<br>
>>=A0>>>2012 17:4=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &a=
>>mp;lt=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&=
>>quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.">p=
>>ars.mutaf at gmail.</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>com"><a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
>>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&=
>>amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br<br>
>>=A0>>>type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&=
>>quot;gmail_quot=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D3D&am=
>>p;quot;margin:0 0 0<br>
>>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;b=
>>r&gt;&lt;div<br>
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D&l=
>>t;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span<br>
>>=A0>>>dir=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt=
>>;a href=3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam=
>>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank=
>>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_bla=
>>nk&quot;&gt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft">Jon.C=
>>rowcroft</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>@<a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blan=
>>k">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">=
>>Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&=
>>lt;/span&gt=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<b=
>>r><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D3D&quo=
>>t;gmail_quote&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>>style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D<br><br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&am=
>>p;quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to tal=
>>k about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is=
>> too hard even for<br>
>>=A0>>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you off=
>>er a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) =
>>changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the<br>
>>=A0>>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&am=
>>p;lt;div=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;=
>>t chang=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&am=
>>p;gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for<br>
>>=A0>>>the Intern=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&=
>>;gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for<br>
>>=A0>>>example, they di=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They can=
>>not explain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would s=
>>tart a new thread &amp;quot;What do<br>
>>=A0>>>we want f=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure i=
>>f I should do this.<br>
>>=A0>>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt=
>>;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&=
>>gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
>>=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid<br>
>>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things abou=
>>t IP (and the E2E<br>
>>=A0>>>argument(s))&lt;br&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard t=
>>o change the problem it<br>
>>=A0>>>solves&lt;br&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&=
>>;amp;#39;t solve, whichever<br>
>>=A0>>>version you c=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)=
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&=
>>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net=
>>">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.203=
>>0808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot;<br=
>>>
>>=A0>>>tar=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<=
>>a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcr=
>>ocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>">=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"=
>>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,=
>> Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>>typed:&lt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;=
>>div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
>>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;mailto:<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae=
>>C2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tF=
>>cP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmai=
>>l.c</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>om"><a href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF=
>>cP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.co=
>>m</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw=
>>O%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2=
>>A at m</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
>>k">ail.gmail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2X=
>>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@=
>>mail.gmail.com</a></a>&=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;=
>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0<br>
>>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D3D<=
>>br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were g=
>>iven)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0<br>
>>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D3D<br&g=
>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br=
>>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly<br>
>>=A0>>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;in the broader sense of whether<br>
>>=A0>>>this thread=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;&=
>>lt;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;being, constructive, it was not<br>
>>=A0>>>relevant...=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg<br>
>>=A0>>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
>>;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http:=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>//<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">=
>>bbiw.net</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.=
>>net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot;<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_b=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a hr=
>>ef=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"=
>> target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt=
>>;/div&gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt=
>>;font<br>
>>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am=
>>p;gt;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&lt;b=
>>r&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l=
>>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&am=
>>p;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot=
>>;&gt;&lt;span<br>
>>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;=
>>font<br>
>>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am=
>>p;gt;-=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&qu=
>>ot;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" target=
>>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" tar=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://=
>>www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a=
>>>=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a hre=
>>f=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://cience.or=
>>g" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a></a>&q=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>uot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&=
>>;gt;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" target=
>>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">=
>>cience.org</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.conte=
>>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.or=
>>g</a></a>&lt;/=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br&g=
>>t;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l=
>>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;=
>>&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br<br>
>>=A0>>>clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &l=
>>t;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a<br>
>>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http://=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>www.c" target=3D3D"_blank"><a =
>>href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=3D3D<=
>>br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a hre=
>>f=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://ontent-based=
>>-science.org</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://tent-based-science.org" target=
>>=3D"_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&am=
>>p;quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>cienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.conte=
>>nt-b" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a hre=
>>f=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://e.org" ta=
>>rget=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=
>>b8d--<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><span class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><fon=
>>t color=3D3D"#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><=
>>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br&=
>>gt;<a href=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.cont"=
>> target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ent-based-science.org" target=
>>=3D"_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>><br>
>></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
>><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=
>>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
>>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>
>>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee--
cheers
jon
More information about the end2end-interest
mailing list