[e2e] Discrete IP - retake

Jon Crowcroft Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
Wed Sep 19 02:35:20 PDT 2012


If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters,
you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services
arrive is approximately 72 hours.

A ver good text if you want a summary of many
real world disasters is this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075

The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN)
is better than nothing. 

vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks
are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data
_along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to
deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now.

of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything,
except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and
told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led
to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone
to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know
anything

In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
com>, Pars Mutaf typed:

 >>
 >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
 >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
 >>
 >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
 >>> great detail,  people have to make do with resources they have to
 >>> hand
 >>>
 >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
 >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
 >>>
 >>>
 >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
 >>
 >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
 >>>
 >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
 >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
 >>
 >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
 >>> target for the other side
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,
 >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just
 >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>>
 >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
 >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
 >>>
 >>>
 >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
 >>infrastructure
 >>network.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>> your move, sunshine.
 >>>
 >>> In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
 >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
 >>>
 >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
 >>>  >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
 >>>  >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
 >>> radio
 >>>  >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
 >>>  >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for
 >>> anything
 >>>  >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications,
 >>> not the
 >>>  >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
 >>>  >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
 >>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
 >>>  >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
 >>>  >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
 >>>  >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
 >>>  >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used
 >>> for.
 >>>  >>>> They cannot explain.
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet"  but I
 >>> am
 >>>  >>>> not sure if I should do this.
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>> Cheers,
 >>>  >>>> Pars
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
 >>>  >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
 >>>  >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
 >>>  >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
 >>>  >>>>>  >>> In missive <
 >>>  >>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
 >>> Par
 >>>  >>>>>  >>> s Mutaf typed:
 >>>  >>>>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>>   >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
 >>>  >>>>> pointers were given)
 >>>  >>>>>  >>>   >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
 >>> relevant.
 >>>  >>>>>  >>>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>> it is exactly relevant.
 >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any
 >>> hope
 >>>  >>>>> of
 >>>  >>>>>  >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
 >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>d/
 >>>  >>>>>  >>
 >>>  >>>>>  >>--
 >>>  >>>>>  >>  Dave Crocker
 >>>  >>>>>  >>  Brandenburg InternetWorking
 >>>  >>>>>  >>  bbiw.net
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>>  cheers
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>>    jon
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>>
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>> --
 >>>  >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>>>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>--
 >>>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
 >>>  >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
 >>>  >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
 >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
 >>>  >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
 >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
 >>>  >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
 >>> class=3D"gmail_=
 >>>  >>quote">
 >>>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
 >>> dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
 >>>  >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
 >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
 >>>  >>.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
 >>> style=
 >>>  >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
 >>> rad=
 >>>  >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
 >>> networ=
 >>>  >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
 >>>  >><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it"
 >>> target=
 >>>  >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can
 >>> imagine and=
 >>>  >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection
 >>> of o=
 >>>  >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;
 >>> &lt=
 >>>  >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
 >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
 >>>  >>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
 >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
 >>>  >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
 >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon
 >>> Cro=
 >>>  >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
 >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
 >>>  >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>
 >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
 >>>  >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
 >>> #cc=
 >>>  >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
 >>>  >>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
 >>>  >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
 >>>  >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t
 >>> chang=
 >>>  >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really
 >>> ask t=
 >>>  >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
 >>> themselves wh=
 >>>  >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the
 >>> Internet&quot;=
 >>>  >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
 >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
 >>>  >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
 >>> 0.8e=
 >>>  >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
 >>>  >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
 >>>  >>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you choose<br>
 >>>  >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
 >>> target=3D"_=
 >>>  >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
 >>>  >><div><div><br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
 >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
 >>>  >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
 >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
 >>>  >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
 >>> Par<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant
 >>> prior=
 >>>  >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
 >>> Crowcroft), it=
 >>>  >> is not relevant.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has
 >>> any=
 >>>  >> hope of<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
 >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
 >>> </a><b=
 >>>  >>r>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
 >>>  >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
 >>>  >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
 >>>  >><br>
 >>>  >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
 >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
 >>>  >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
 >>> http://www.content-based-s=
 >>>  >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>> </a><br><=
 >>>  >>br>
 >>>  >></font></span></blockquote></div>
 >>>  >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
 >>> http://www.c=
 >>>  >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
 >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
 >>>  >>e.org</a><br><br>
 >>>  >>
 >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
 >>>
 >>>  cheers
 >>>
 >>>    jon
 >>>
 >>>
 >>
 >>
 >>-- 
 >>http://www.content-based-science.org
 >>
 >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
 >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
 >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 >>
 >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =
 >><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=
 >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
 >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
 >>d;padding-left:1ex">
 >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
 >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
 >>hand<br>
 >><br>
 >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
 >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
 >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users&#39; task=
 >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br><br>=
 >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
 >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>
 >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
 >><br>
 >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
 >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=
 >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the netw=
 >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to=
 >> work.<br>
 >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
 >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
 >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do not =
 >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do obscur=
 >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most expensive=
 >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
 >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
 >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >><br>
 >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
 >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
 >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=
 >> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
 >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
 >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
 >>
 >>your move, sunshine.<br>
 >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
 >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
 >>ing-left:1ex">
 >>In missive &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
 >>il.<br>
 >>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
 >><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
 >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
 >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
 >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=
 >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since AR=
 >>PA Packet radio<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, veh=
 >>icular<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"http://thing=
 >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communi=
 >>cations, not the<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D=
 >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
 >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; pos=
 >>er syndrome<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<=
 >>br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask thi=
 >>s question?<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wha=
 >>t it is used for.<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for th=
 >>e Internet&quot; =A0but I am<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argume=
 >>nt(s))<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the problem it =
 >>solves<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever vers=
 >>ion you choose<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d=
 >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=
 >>e:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
 >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
 >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, Par<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to=
 >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was give=
 >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thr=
 >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant=
 >>...<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=
 >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=
 >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blan=
 >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=
 >>ef=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
 >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a href=3D=
 >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
 >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=
 >>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;span dir=3D3=
 >>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
 >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=
 >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a>&lt=
 >>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot=
 >>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
 >>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist sinc=
 >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehic=
 >>ular networ=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D=
 >>&quot;<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=
 >>t; target=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D=
 >>"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anything we can imag=
 >>ine and=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communications, not the inters=
 >>ection of o=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=
 >>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
 >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=
 >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br type=3D3D&quot;attribution&q=
 >>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
 >>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=
 >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D=
 >>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
 >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft=
 >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt=
 >>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:=
 >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for you&amp;quot; poser sy=
 >>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=
 >>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t chang=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for the Intern=
 >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for example, they di=
 >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do we want f=
 >>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=
 >>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=
 >>t; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=
 >>gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))&lt;br&=
 >>gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves&lt;br&=
 >>gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever version you c=
 >>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
 >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&quot; tar=
 >>get=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
 >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker typed:&lt=
 >>;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&=
 >>lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=
 >>&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
 >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
 >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot=
 >>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
 >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&=
 >>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=
 >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=
 >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=
 >>br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread=
 >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...=
 >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=
 >><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http:=
 >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_b=
 >>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&lt=
 >>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br>
 >>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=
 >><br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=
 >>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br=
 >>>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=
 >>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar=
 >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
 >>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
 >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>&lt;/=
 >>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br>
 >>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;=
 >>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http://=
 >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">on=
 >>tent-based-science.org</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=
 >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=
 >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
 >>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=
 >>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
 >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
 >><br>
 >>=A0cheers<br>
 >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
 >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
 >><br>
 >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=
 >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
 >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
 >>
 >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--

 cheers

   jon



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