[e2e] Discrete IP - retake

Pars Mutaf pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 02:40:54 PDT 2012


Sorry I don't believe this. I continue to question everything.

I don't believe that there is a 72 hours delay. We have helicopters, etc.
If there is an
unacceptable delay, the right approach is to invest on decreasing this
delay because
communication is not the only problem in a disasters scenario. People need
food, water,
etc.

Do some meditation and ask yourself the *real reason of these
publications*. It took
me 5 years to see the naked truth.


On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:

> If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters,
> you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services
> arrive is approximately 72 hours.
>
> A ver good text if you want a summary of many
> real world disasters is this book
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075
>
> The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN)
> is better than nothing.
>
> vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks
> are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data
> _along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to
> deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now.
>
> of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything,
> except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and
> told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led
> to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone
> to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know
> anything
>
> In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>
>  >>
>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>  >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>  >>> great detail,  people have to make do with resources they have to
>  >>> hand
>  >>>
>  >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>  >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
>  >>
>  >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>  >>>
>  >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
>  >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
>  >>
>  >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>  >>> target for the other side
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,
>  >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just
>  >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>>
>  >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>  >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
>  >>infrastructure
>  >>network.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>> your move, sunshine.
>  >>>
>  >>> In missive
> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
>  >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>  >>>
>  >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>  >>>  >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>  >>>  >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA
> Packet
>  >>> radio
>  >>>  >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>  >>>  >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for
>  >>> anything
>  >>>  >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> communications,
>  >>> not the
>  >>>  >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>  >>>  >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>  >>>  >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>  >>>  >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>  >>>  >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>  >>>  >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this
> question?
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is
> used
>  >>> for.
>  >>>  >>>> They cannot explain.
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet"
>  but I
>  >>> am
>  >>>  >>>> not sure if I should do this.
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>> Cheers,
>  >>>  >>>> Pars
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>  >>>  >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>  >>>  >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>  >>>  >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker
> typed:
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>> In missive <
>  >>>  >>>>>
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>  >>> Par
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>> s Mutaf typed:
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>   >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work
> (many
>  >>>  >>>>> pointers were given)
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>   >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
>  >>> relevant.
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>> it is exactly relevant.
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or
> has any
>  >>> hope
>  >>>  >>>>> of
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>d/
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>--
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>  Dave Crocker
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>  Brandenburg InternetWorking
>  >>>  >>>>>  >>  bbiw.net
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>>  cheers
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>>    jon
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>>
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>> --
>  >>>  >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>>>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>--
>  >>>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>  >>>  >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>>  >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
>  >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
>  >>>  >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
>  >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
>  >>>  >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
>  >>> class=3D"gmail_=
>  >>>  >>quote">
>  >>>  >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
>  >>> dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
>  >>>  >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>  >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
>  >>>  >>.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> class=3D"gmail_quote"
>  >>> style=
>  >>>  >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>  >>>  >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA
> Packet
>  >>> rad=
>  >>>  >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> vehicular
>  >>> networ=
>  >>>  >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>  >>>  >><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>  >>> target=
>  >>>  >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can
>  >>> imagine and=
>  >>>  >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
> intersection
>  >>> of o=
>  >>>  >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars
> Mutaf&quot;
>  >>> &lt=
>  >>>  >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>  >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
>  >>>  >>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
>  >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
>  >>>  >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>  >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17
> PM, Jon
>  >>> Cro=
>  >>>  >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
>  >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
>  >>>  >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>
>  >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
>  >>>  >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1px
>  >>> #cc=
>  >>>  >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>  >>>  >>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>  >>>  >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>  >>>  >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I
> didn&#39;t
>  >>> chang=
>  >>>  >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we
> really
>  >>> ask t=
>  >>>  >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>  >>> themselves wh=
>  >>>  >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want for the
>  >>> Internet&quot;=
>  >>>  >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>  >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
>  >>>  >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt
>  >>> 0.8e=
>  >>>  >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>  >>>  >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>  >>>  >>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you
> choose<br>
>  >>>  >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
>  >>> target=3D"_=
>  >>>  >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
> typed:<br>
>  >>>  >><div><div><br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
>  >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
>  >>>  >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
>  >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
>  >>>  >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;,
>  >>> Par<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the
> relevant
>  >>> prior=
>  >>>  >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>  >>> Crowcroft), it=
>  >>>  >> is not relevant.<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
> or has
>  >>> any=
>  >>>  >> hope of<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
> bbiw.net
>  >>> </a><b=
>  >>>  >>r>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
>  >>>  >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>  >>>  >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
>  >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
>  >>>  >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>  >>> http://www.content-based-s=
>  >>>  >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>  >>> </a><br><=
>  >>>  >>br>
>  >>>  >></font></span></blockquote></div>
>  >>>  >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>  >>> http://www.c=
>  >>>  >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>  >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
>  >>>  >>e.org</a><br><br>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>  >>>
>  >>>  cheers
>  >>>
>  >>>    jon
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>--
>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>  >>
>  >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>  >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>  >>
>  >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
> Crowcroft =
>  >><span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> target=
>  >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>
> wrote:<br><blockquote=
>  >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> soli=
>  >>d;padding-left:1ex">
>  >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
>  >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>  >>hand<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
>  >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
>  >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users&#39;
> task=
>  >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
> them.<br><br>=
>  >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8e=
>  >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>  >>
>  >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>  >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in
> a di=
>  >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the
> netw=
>  >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
> probability to=
>  >> work.<br>
>  >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt =
>  >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>  >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
>  >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do
> not =
>  >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do
> obscur=
>  >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most
> expensive=
>  >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
>  >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt =
>  >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>  >><br>
>  >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>  >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>  >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
> dangerous*.=
>  >> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote
> class=
>  >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px
> solid rg=
>  >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>  >>
>  >>your move, sunshine.<br>
>  >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
> class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
>  >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padd=
>  >>ing-left:1ex">
>  >>In missive
> &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
>  >>il.<br>
>  >>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>  >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
>  >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
>  >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">jon.crowcroft@=
>  >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
> since AR=
>  >>PA Packet radio<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> veh=
>  >>icular<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D"
> http://thing=
>  >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> communi=
>  >>cations, not the<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a
> href=3D=
>  >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft
> &lt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowc=
>  >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot;
> pos=
>  >>er syndrome<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, whenever you offer a workable
> solution,<=
>  >>br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t change the problem:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask
> thi=
>  >>s question?<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves
> wha=
>  >>t it is used for.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want
> for th=
>  >>e Internet&quot; =A0but I am<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do this.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> argume=
>  >>nt(s))<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is really hard to change the problem
> it =
>  >>solves<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever
> vers=
>  >>ion you choose<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at d=
>  >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
> typed:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> wrot=
>  >>e:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
>  >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
>  >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, Par<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage
> you to=
>  >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were given)<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was
> give=
>  >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this
> thr=
>  >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not
> relevant=
>  >>...<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;d/<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt; =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> target=
>  >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0cheers<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0jon<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=
>  >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blan=
>  >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon.
> See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=
>  >>ef=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://w=
>  >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a
> href=3D=
>  >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/ma=
>  >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=
>  >>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;span
> dir=3D3=
>  >>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a hr=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>  >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;
> target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=
>  >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk
> </a>&lt=
>  >>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote
> class=3D3D&quot=
>  >>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> solid;padding-=
>  >>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
> sinc=
>  >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> vehic=
>  >>ular networ=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a
> href=3D3D=
>  >>&quot;<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it
> </a>&quo=
>  >>t; target=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> target=3D=
>  >>"_blank">thing.it</a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anything we can
> imag=
>  >>ine and=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
> inters=
>  >>ection of o=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012
> 17:4=
>  >>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> pars.mutaf at gmail.=
>  >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>&quot;
> target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=
>  >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br
> type=3D3D&quot;attribution&q=
>  >>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> #ccc s=
>  >>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div
> class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=
>  >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a
> href=3D=
>  >>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>  >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot; =3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft=
>  >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt=
>  >>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;
> style=3D3D&quot;margin:=
>  >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even for you&amp;quot;
> poser sy=
>  >>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a workable
> solution,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;problem (or the
> assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=
>  >>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#39;t chang=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for the
> Intern=
>  >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for example,
> they di=
>  >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explain. &lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new thread &amp;quot;What do we
> want f=
>  >>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
> &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=
>  >>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote
> class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=
>  >>t; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=
>  >>gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> argument(s))&lt;br&=
>  >>gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the problem it
> solves&lt;br&=
>  >>gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve, whichever version
> you c=
>  >>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a
> href=3D"mailto=
>  >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&quot;
> tar=
>  >>get=3D3D&quot;_=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
>  >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Crocker
> typed:&lt=
>  >>;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> wrote:&=
>  >>lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a
> href=3D3D=
>  >>&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
>  >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:
> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
>  >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&quot;
> target=3D3D&quot=
>  >>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
>  >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a>&=
>  >>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;
> I e=
>  >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1
> point=
>  >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly
> relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=
>  >>br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broader sense of whether this
> thread=
>  >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, constructive, it was not
> relevant...=
>  >>&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
> InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a
> href=3D"http:=
>  >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>&quot;
> target=3D3D&quot;_b=
>  >>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> </a>&lt=
>  >>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D<br>
>  >>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;=3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font
> color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0 =3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=
>  >>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;span
> class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D<br=
>  >>>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font
> color=3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=
>  >>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> tar=
>  >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org
> </a>&q=
>  >>uot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-s=
>  >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a>&lt;/=
>  >>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D<br>
>  >>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br
> clear=3D3D&quot;=
>  >>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a
> href=3D"http://=
>  >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blank">on=
>  >>tent-based-science.org</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a
> href=
>  >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-b=
>  >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
>  >>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org
> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=
>  >>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0cheers<br>
>  >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>  >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>  >><br>
>  >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=
>  >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.cont=
>  >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>  >>
>  >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>
>  cheers
>
>    jon
>
>


-- 
http://www.content-based-science.org
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/attachments/20120919/3f2e33f5/attachment-0001.html


More information about the end2end-interest mailing list