[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf
pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Thu Sep 20 02:36:06 PDT 2012
I guess you forgot to include the list this time.
Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of disaster.
See for example:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144
http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages
If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust
as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar...
Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work.
ps: DTN, I did not question yet.
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one songle
> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your incorrect
> views about disasters and about our networks.
>
> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.
> 1. how many do you need
> 2. what is their cost
> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation
> 4. how long do their power sources last
> 5. what are your plans for maintenance
> 6. how often are they deployed?
> what if you get repeated disasters E.g.
> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)
> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons
>
>
> by the way, you said MANET again -
> I said we modified this 12 years back or
> more to do DTN -
> please stop repeateing incorrect
> ideas YOU have that I didnt say.
>
> you are confused.
>
> In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=
> Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> s Mutaf typed:
>
> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.
> >>>
> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure
> >>>
> >>> There are lots of ways to do that -
> >>>
> >>> One is to build standby cell power
> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were)
> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old
> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail
> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) -
> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...
> >>>
> >>
> >>Cool.
> >>
> >>
> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
> parallel in
> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get
> either of
> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model
> >>>
> >>> However, its beside the point:
> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want
> to
> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...
> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_
> >>> who have safe water, dry
> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -
> >>>
> >>
> >>No I don't do this mistake.
> >>
> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood too***.
> >>
> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.
> >>
> >>It is not needed as you admitted above.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> What people building DTNs
> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a
> >>> self organising set of people to
> >>> self organise opportunistic communication,
> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along
> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually
> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have
> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
> >>> go figure out how get that paid for).
> >>>
> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail lists
> -
> >>>
> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error
> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to
> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's obviously
> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).
> >>>
> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,
> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit
> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing
> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg
> >>>
> >>> Its been, er, virtual...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=
> >>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>>
> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET will
> only
> >>> be
> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to do. I
> would
> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for
> trying to
> >>> get
> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume energy
> for
> >>> others
> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they
> should do.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken leg,
> >>> request
> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things, but I
> am not
> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide?
> >>> >>
> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone. Some
> people
> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my
> pocket.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Therefore:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will
> broadcast
> >>> an
> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about education.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>===
> >>> >>
> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust enough,
> we may
> >>> not
> >>> >>even need a balloon:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>>
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>
> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>
> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM,
> Jon Cr=
> >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> wrote:<br><blo=
> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
> >><br>
> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
> >><br>
> >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
> >><br>
> >>One is to build standby cell power<br>
> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF (fail<br>
> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -<br>
> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
> fact...<br></blockq=
> >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote
> class=3D"gmail_quot=
> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204)=
> >>;padding-left:1ex">
> >>
> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
> parallel in=
> >><br>
> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get
> either =
> >>of<br>
> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business model<br>
> >><br>
> >>However, its beside the point:<br>
> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone want
> to<br=
> >>>
> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny Mnemonic)...<br>
> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br>
> >>who have safe water, dry<br>
> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc
> -<br></blockquote><div><br>No =
> >>I don't do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can serve for
> the =
> >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing but a
> res=
> >>earch exercise to me. <br>
> >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above.
> <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot=
> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>
> >>What people building DTNs<br>
> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
> >>self organising set of people to<br>
> >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br>
> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br>
> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
> >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
> >><br>
> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail
> lists -=
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br>
> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br>
> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's
> obviously<br=
> >>>
> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).<br>
> >><br>
> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br>
> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br>
> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing<br>
> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
> >><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
> target=3D"_blank">=
> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
> >><br>
> >>Its been, er, virtual...<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto:
> yf18msEv0dg-=
> >>4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
> </a>>,=
> >> Par<br>
> >>s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise
> MANET wi=
> >>ll only be<br>
> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to
> do. I=
> >> would<br>
> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery
> for tr=
> >>ying to get<br>
> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to consume
> energy=
> >> for others<br>
> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what
> they sh=
> >>ould do.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your
> broken le=
> >>g, request<br>
> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things,
> but =
> >>I am not<br>
> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can
> provide?<br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone.
> Some =
> >>people<br>
> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this
> in my=
> >> pocket.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>Therefore:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It
> will br=
> >>oadcast an<br>
> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about
> education.<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust
> enough,=
> >> we may not<br>
> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=
> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
> target=3D=
> >>"_blank">
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=
> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=3D"=
> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-=
> >>based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>
> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--
>
> cheers
>
> jon
>
>
--
http://www.content-based-science.org
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