[e2e] Discrete IP - retake

Pars Mutaf pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Thu Sep 20 03:14:10 PDT 2012


OK see, where there was a problem:

http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/

It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on
MANET seriously?

London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down:

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html



On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:

> you give examples where it does work - so what?
>
> counter examples:
> both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets
> in indonesia and japan.
> in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube,
> for 7 hours no cell net worked at all.
>
> you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a
> disaster backup net. I can give you many
>
> you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual.
>
> In missive <CACQuieaHQpQT_tsp9Lzp0Thw42U5xRZ1xbhHDM4Yi+G8co=
> 0PA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> s Mutaf typed:
>
>  >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0
>  >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>
>  >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time.
>  >>
>  >>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of
> disaster.
>  >>See for example:
>  >>
>  >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144
>  >>
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
>  >>
> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages
>  >>
>  >>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more
> robust
>  >>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar...
>  >>
>  >>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work.
>  >>
>  >>ps: DTN, I did not question yet.
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>  >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>  >>
>  >>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one
> songle
>  >>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your
> incorrect
>  >>> views about disasters and about our networks.
>  >>>
>  >>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.
>  >>> 1. how many do you need
>  >>> 2. what is their cost
>  >>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation
>  >>> 4. how long do their power sources last
>  >>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance
>  >>> 6. how often are they deployed?
>  >>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g.
>  >>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)
>  >>> 7.  what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>> by the way, you said MANET again -
>  >>> I said we modified this 12 years back or
>  >>> more to do DTN -
>  >>> please stop repeateing incorrect
>  >>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say.
>  >>>
>  >>> you are confused.
>  >>>
>  >>> In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=
>  >>> Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>  >>> s Mutaf typed:
>  >>>
>  >>>  >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
>  >>>  >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>  >>>  >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> There are lots of ways to do that -
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> One is to build standby cell power
>  >>>  >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
>  >>>  >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
>  >>>  >>> the way the generators at fukushima were)
>  >>>  >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old
>  >>>  >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF
> (fail
>  >>>  >>> defined as >50% of lines down) -
>  >>>  >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
>  >>>  >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>Cool.
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
>  >>> parallel in
>  >>>  >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get
>  >>> either of
>  >>>  >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
> model
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> However, its beside the point:
>  >>>  >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone
> want
>  >>> to
>  >>>  >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mnemonic)...
>  >>>  >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_
>  >>>  >>> who have safe water, dry
>  >>>  >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>No I don't do this mistake.
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood
> too***.
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>It is not needed as you admitted above.
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>> What people building DTNs
>  >>>  >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
>  >>>  >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a
>  >>>  >>> self organising set of people to
>  >>>  >>> self organise opportunistic communication,
>  >>>  >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along
>  >>>  >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually
>  >>>  >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have
>  >>>  >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
>  >>>  >>> go figure out how get that paid for).
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail
> lists
>  >>> -
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error
>  >>>  >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to
>  >>>  >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's
> obviously
>  >>>  >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,
>  >>>  >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit
>  >>>  >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing
>  >>>  >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
>  >>>  >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> Its been, er, virtual...
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=
>  >>>  >>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>  >>>  >>> s Mutaf typed:
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>>  >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
>  >>>  >>>  >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET
> will
>  >>> only
>  >>>  >>> be
>  >>>  >>>  >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to
> do. I
>  >>> would
>  >>>  >>>  >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for
>  >>> trying to
>  >>>  >>> get
>  >>>  >>>  >>help from non-professional strangers.
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume
> energy
>  >>> for
>  >>>  >>> others
>  >>>  >>>  >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they
>  >>> should do.
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken
> leg,
>  >>>  >>> request
>  >>>  >>>  >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things,
> but I
>  >>> am not
>  >>>  >>>  >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide?
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone.
> Some
>  >>> people
>  >>>  >>>  >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my
>  >>> pocket.
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>Therefore:
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will
>  >>> broadcast
>  >>>  >>> an
>  >>>  >>>  >>address which everyone can call for real help.
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about
> education.
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>===
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust
> enough,
>  >>> we may
>  >>>  >>> not
>  >>>  >>>  >>even need a balloon:
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
>  >>>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>--
>  >>>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
>  >>>  >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>>  >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35
> AM,
>  >>> Jon Cr=
>  >>>  >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:
>  >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"=
>  >>>  >> target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span>
>  >>> wrote:<br><blo=
>  >>>  >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
>  >>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
>  >>>  >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>  >>>  >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>One is to build standby cell power<br>
>  >>>  >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
>  >>>  >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
>  >>>  >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
>  >>>  >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
>  >>>  >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF
> (fail<br>
>  >>>  >>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br>
>  >>>  >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
>  >>>  >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
>  >>> fact...<br></blockq=
>  >>>  >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote
>  >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
>  >>>  >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
>  >>> rgb(204,204,204)=
>  >>>  >>;padding-left:1ex">
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
>  >>> parallel in=
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure out how to get
>  >>> either =
>  >>>  >>of<br>
>  >>>  >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
> model<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>However, its beside the point:<br>
>  >>>  >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone
> want
>  >>> to<br=
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mnemonic)...<br>
>  >>>  >>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br>
>  >>>  >>who have safe water, dry<br>
>  >>>  >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc
>  >>> -<br></blockquote><div><br>No =
>  >>>  >>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can serve
> for
>  >>> the =
>  >>>  >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing
> but a
>  >>> res=
>  >>>  >>earch exercise to me. <br>
>  >>>  >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above.
>  >>> <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot=
>  >>>  >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>  >>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
>  >>>  >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>What people building DTNs<br>
>  >>>  >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
>  >>>  >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
>  >>>  >>self organising set of people to<br>
>  >>>  >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
>  >>>  >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
>  >>>  >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br>
>  >>>  >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br>
>  >>>  >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
>  >>>  >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail
>  >>> lists -=
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br>
>  >>>  >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br>
>  >>>  >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that&#39;s
>  >>> obviously<br=
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left then,
> though).<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br>
>  >>>  >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br>
>  >>>  >>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; playing<br>
>  >>>  >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
>  >>>  >><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
>  >>> target=3D"_blank">=
>  >>>  >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>Its been, er, virtual...<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto:
>  >>> yf18msEv0dg-=
>  >>>  >>4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
>  >>> </a>&gt;,=
>  >>>  >> Par<br>
>  >>>  >>s Mutaf typed:<br>
>  >>>  >><br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>  >>>  >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise
>  >>> MANET wi=
>  >>>  >>ll only be<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what
> to
>  >>> do. I=
>  >>>  >> would<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of consuming my
> battery
>  >>> for tr=
>  >>>  >>ying to get<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional strangers.<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no incentive to
> consume
>  >>> energy=
>  >>>  >> for others<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help. And this is what
>  >>> they sh=
>  >>>  >>ould do.<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your
>  >>> broken le=
>  >>>  >>g, request<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional neighbors or other
> things,
>  >>> but =
>  >>>  >>I am not<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can
>  >>> provide?<br=
>  >>>  >>>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach
> anyone.
>  >>> Some =
>  >>>  >>people<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I don&#39;t have
> this
>  >>> in my=
>  >>>  >> pocket.<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It
>  >>> will br=
>  >>>  >>oadcast an<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for real help.<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking problem. It is about
>  >>> education.<=
>  >>>  >>br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust
>  >>> enough,=
>  >>>  >> we may not<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"
>  >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=
>  >>>  >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
>  >>> target=3D=
>  >>>  >>"_blank">
>  >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=
>  >>>  >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>>  >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
>  >>> href=3D"=
>  >>>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>  >>> http://www.content-=
>  >>>  >>based-science.org</a><br><br>
>  >>>  >>
>  >>>  >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--
>  >>>
>  >>>  cheers
>  >>>
>  >>>    jon
>  >>>
>  >>>
>  >>
>  >>
>  >>--
>  >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>  >>
>  >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0
>  >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>  >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>  >>
>  >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. <br><br>Well by
> current p=
>  >>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for
> example: <=
>  >>br><br><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144">
> http://www=
>  >>.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a><br>
>  >><a href=3D"
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon=
>  >>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
> target=3D"_blank">ht=
>  >>tp://
> www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios=
>  >>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>  >><a href=3D"
> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph=
>  >>ones-major-disasters-messages">
> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine=
>  >>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br><br>If you dot
> tru=
>  >>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you
> agreed=
>  >>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... <br>
>  >><br>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. <br><br>ps:
> DTN, I =
>  >>did not question yet. <br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On
> Thu, Se=
>  >>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a
> href=3D"mail=
>  >>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>  >></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
>  >><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1p=
>  >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where&#39;s your funds to do your
> pla=
>  >>n? you havn&#39;t answered one songle<br>
>  >>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your
> incorrect<br=
>  >>>
>  >>views about disasters and about our networks.<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br>
>  >>1. how many do you need<br>
>  >>2. what is their cost<br>
>  >>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br>
>  >>4. how long do their power sources last<br>
>  >>5. what are your plans for maintenance<br>
>  >>6. how often are they deployed?<br>
>  >>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br>
>  >>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br>
>  >>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br>
>  >><br>
>  >><br>
>  >>by the way, you said MANET again -<br>
>  >>I said we modified this 12 years back or<br>
>  >>more to do DTN -<br>
>  >>please stop repeateing incorrect<br>
>  >>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>you are confused.<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>In missive &lt;CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D<a href=3D"mailto:
> Oqi__T9T0GEcr=
>  >>1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com
> </a>&gt;=
>  >>, Par<br>
>  >>s Mutaf typed:<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>  >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>  >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&gt;wrote:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; One is to build standby cell power<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a
> 100years M=
>  >>TBF (fail<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
> fac=
>  >>t...<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Cool.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one
> whic=
>  >>h is parallel in<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure
> out ho=
>  >>w to get either of<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some
> busines=
>  >>s model<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; However, its beside the point:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; The mistake you make is that you think people in a
> disaster=
>  >> zone want to<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mne=
>  >>monic)...<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people
> _nea=
>  >>rby_<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; who have safe water, dry<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;No I don&#39;t do this mistake.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;***The base station can serve for the calling the
> neighborhood t=
>  >>oo***.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;It is not needed as you admitted above.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; What people building DTNs<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; self organising set of people to<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; and fixes the infrastructure some while later
> usually<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; (because coming along right away requires you to
> have<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies
> present=
>  >> on mail lists -<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; One has already been alluded to - the other is my own
> error=
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; in assuming that it was still my duty in public online
> fora=
>  >> to<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff -
> that&#3=
>  >>9;s obviously<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left
> then, t=
>  >>hough).<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each
> other=
>  >>,<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a
> bit=
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; while listening to &#39;Blood&#39; playing<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
> ta=
>  >>rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; Its been, er, virtual...<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:
> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">y=
>  >>f18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com</a>&gt;, Par<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=
>  >>r>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the
> infrastructure, ot=
>  >>herwise MANET will only<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; be<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who have
> no id=
>  >>ea what to do. I would<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of
> consuming m=
>  >>y battery for trying to<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; get<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional strangers.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no
> incentive t=
>  >>o consume energy for<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; others<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help. And
> this=
>  >> is what they should do.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your
> neighbors fo=
>  >>r your broken leg,<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; request<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional neighbors
> or ot=
>  >>her things, but I am not<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real help
> they=
>  >> can provide?<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I cannot
> rea=
>  >>ch anyone. Some people<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I
> don&#39;t=
>  >> have this in my pocket.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as fast as
> poss=
>  >>ible. It will broadcast<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; an<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for real
> help.<b=
>  >>r>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking problem. It
> is a=
>  >>bout education.<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;=3D=3D=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular network
> is no=
>  >>t robust enough, we may<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; not<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new=
>  >>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
> targ=
>  >>et=3D"_blank">
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p=
>  >>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>  >>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt; =A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blan=
>  >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >></div></div>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
>  >><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<=
>  >>br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div
> class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&qu=
>  >>ot;&gt;On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D<br>
>  >><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;owcroft &lt;span
> dir=3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&a=
>  >>mp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac=
>  >>.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>&quot;=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcrof=
>  >>t at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&g=
>  >>t; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blo=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ckquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;
> style=3D3D&quot;margin=
>  >>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;cc solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>  >></div>=A0&gt;&gt;Ah - I see the source of confusion.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;You want to build a standby infrastructure&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;There are lots of ways to do that -&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;One is to build standby cell power&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;the way the generators at fukushima were)&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;or have huge racks of batteries the way old&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years
> MTBF (=
>  >>fail&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;defined as &amp;gt;50% of lines down) -&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
> fact...&=
>  >>lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockq=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;uote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;Cool.
> &lt;br=
>  >>&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
>  >> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which
> is =
>  >>parallel in=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;technology - as you&amp;#39;ve proposed....and go figure out
> how=
>  >> to get either =3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;of&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
> mod=
>  >>el&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;However, its beside the point:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster
> zone=
>  >> want to&lt;br=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mnemonic=
>  >>)...&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;they don&amp;#39;t. what they want is to find other people
> _near=
>  >>by_&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;who have safe water, dry&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc
> -&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blo=
>  >>ckquote&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;br&gt;No =3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;I don&amp;#39;t do this mistake. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;***The
> base=
>  >> station can serve for the =3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;calling the neighborhood too***. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;MANET
> looks=
>  >> like nothing but a res=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;earch exercise to me. &lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;It is not needed as you admitted above.
> &lt;br&gt;&lt;=
>  >>br&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3DA0&lt;/div&gt;&lt;blockquot=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;e class=3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;
> style=3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0=
>  >>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;What people building DTNs&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;(not just MANETs as you keep insisting
> incorrectly)&lt;br&gt;<br=
>  >>>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;want to do is to provide _something_ for a&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;self organising set of people to&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;self organise opportunistic communication,&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;UNTIL someone (else) comes along&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;and fixes the infrastructure some while later
> usually&lt;br&gt;<=
>  >>br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;(because coming along right away requires you to
> have&lt;br&gt;<=
>  >>br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;go figure out how get that paid for).&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Anyhow I&amp;#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies
> present =
>  >>on mail lists -=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;One has already been alluded to - the other is my own
> error&lt;b=
>  >>r&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora
> to&l=
>  >>t;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff -
> that&amp;#39=
>  >>;s obviously&lt;br=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;not the point any more. (lord knows what&amp;#39;s left
> then, th=
>  >>ough).&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each
> other,&lt;=
>  >>br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a
> bit&lt;b=
>  >>r&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;while listening to &amp;#39;Blood&amp;#39;
> playing&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
>  >>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6=
>  >>ZJjt9lg</a>&quot; target=3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
> targe=
>  >>t=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=
>  >>t;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;Its been, er, virtual...&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D&lt;a
> href=3D=
>  >>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yf18msEv0dg-">yf18msEv0dg-</a>=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
> ">4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.g=
>  >>mail.com</a>&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:
> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.=
>  >>com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
> </a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; Par&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>
>  >></div>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8&lt;br&=
>  >>gt;<br>
>  >><div class=3D"im">=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Content-Type:
> text/plain;=
>  >> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >></div>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D&quot;HOEnZb&quot;&gt;&lt;div
> class=3D3D=
>  >>&quot;h5&quot;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad
> idea:&lt;br&=
>  >>gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;1. We need to reconstruct the
> infrastructur=
>  >>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ll only be&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who
> have =
>  >>no idea what to do. I=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; would&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;rather wait for real help instead of
> consum=
>  >>ing my battery for tr=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ying to get&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;help from non-professional
> strangers.&lt;br=
>  >>&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;This means that users really have no
> incent=
>  >>ive to consume energy=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; for others&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;because they are waiting for real help.
> And=
>  >> this is what they sh=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;ould do.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;You can of course try to reach your
> neighbo=
>  >>rs for your broken le=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;g, request&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;water from your non-professional
> neighbors =
>  >>or other things, but =3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;I am not&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real
> help=
>  >> they can provide?&lt;br=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;2. If I am too far from the network I
> canno=
>  >>t reach anyone. Some =3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;people&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I
> don&=
>  >>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; pocket.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Therefore:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;The balloons should be installed as
> fast as=
>  >> possible. It will br=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;oadcast an&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;address which everyone can call for
> real he=
>  >>lp.&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;This is really not a networking
> problem. It=
>  >> is about education.&lt;=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;I am also not sure if the cellular
> network =
>  >>is not robust enough,=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt; we may not&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;even need a balloon:&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;a href=3D3D&quot;<a href=3D"
> http://www.=
>  >>trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www=
>  >>.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D</a><br>
>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/=
>  >>&quot; target=3D3D=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D"
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b=
>  >>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.trust.=
>  >>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D</a><br>
>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/&lt;/a&gt;&lt=
>  >>;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;=3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt=
>  >>;&lt;br clear=3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a
> href=3D3D=
>  >>&quot;=3D<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blan=
>  >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>&quot;
> target=3D3D&quot;_blank&q=
>  >>uot;&gt;<a href=3D"http://www.content-" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.conten=
>  >>t-</a>=3D<br>
>  >>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"http://based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blank">based-sci=
>  >>ence.org</a>&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;<br>
>  >>=A0&gt;&gt;--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br>
>  >><br>
>  >>=A0cheers<br>
>  >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>  >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>  >><br>
>  >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=
>  >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.cont=
>  >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>  >>
>  >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0--
>
>  cheers
>
>    jon
>
>


-- 
http://www.content-based-science.org
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